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CCW tactics thought

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by Nwcid, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    So I am sure many of us have thought about many situations where we might have to use or gun for defense of ourselves or others. We have seen in our minds how it might play out, how it should play out.

    I have seen all the headlines about the recent movie shooting, but have not read the actual stories. I assume (you know how that goes) many of us see an incident where there is on clear aggressor in a reasonably well lit area. Probably a smaller area like a gas station or such.

    Now take this movie theater situation. Over 100 people, in a dark area with loud outside stimulus (the movie) going on. Who do you shoot at if you feel you need to shoot? Anyone with a gun? Could that be another "CCWer" on defense? Is there only one shooter?

    Now you have your gun out in an active shooter situation. How do you keep from being seen as the active shooter by another "CCWer"?

    Just some more things to think about, I dont have the answers.
     
  2. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

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    I've thought long and hard about these scenarios and have come to this conclusion.

    If I hear shots I will try to escape and avoid who or whatever is going on. If I can't escape I will try to hide somewhere like in an employee are, office or restroom. If you are still coming toward me or my loved one's with your firearm I will shoot you...period. I've considered that there will probably be other CCWers around, off duty police officers or even sleeper agents (someone playing victim to attack first responders trying to resolve the situation) that would probably shoot you playing force-on-force with the actual active shooter. This answer, however, changes if it unfolds in front of you. If I positively know who the aggressor is (i.e. I witnessed the guy pull out a gun and start shooting) then by all means I will take out the threat.
     
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  3. xanadrew

    xanadrew Tacoma New Member

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    Well, in this scenario at the movie theater, the aggressor would be the guy in the gas mask brandishing a long gun. Most honest CCW holders don't carry either of those. Also if you're yelling for everyone to get down while you take action, you're less likely to be confused for an aggressor yourself, IMHO. Of course, every scenario is different, YMMV, etc.
     
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  4. ArgentineSteel

    ArgentineSteel Vancouver, WA Active Member

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    First get educated. Take a CCW class to learn what to expect and how to react. You may want further classes on personal security.

    Don't wander the theater pointing your weapon at people while firing. Don't look like a thug shooter or mall ninja.

    If you feel your life or the lives of others are in danger, act.

    Make the situation safe. Deal with the shooter, keep your eye on the shooter, keep him down and immobile. Watch for other shooters. If he flees, do not follow.

    Communicate. Panicky people will be everywhere. Shout commands, "drop the F*N weapon", "Stay down", "Stay Back", "Do not touch the weapon", "Call 911", "I have the shooter".

    Let the bystanders know they can leave, they have some control, warn them not to panic, warn them to watch for other terrorists.

    In the aftermath have your companions help cover your back, watch for police arriving, or other CCW entering the sceen. Be prepared to get arrested, do not do any thing that will get you shot. Comply with the orders of uniformed authorities. Call your lawyer.
     
  5. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    All good thoughts in THEORY. But in practice it is not the same.

    To some anyone with a firearm in a stressful situation could be seen as a threat to someone else. Hell simple open carry in daily life gets the cops called.

    Can you please tell me what a "thug or mall ninja" looks like from someone else's perspective? What may be normal for you may easily be seen poorly by others.

    Again just because you know the commands you are yelling trying to take control may be seen by others as you being the aggressor with a gun. How about if they are not hear by all because of excessive external noise like the movie in this case?

    Again I dont have the answers but saying you have to rely on the perspective of others for part of your safety as soon as you have a gun out. These are things to think about.


     
  6. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

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    FYI I posted the above with no prior knowledge of the Colorado theater shooting. I've played it out in my head again and again...did you know that there are now reports of him wearing body armor from head to his thighs? Your typical pistol is not going to even slow down a person decked out for war like that. I honestly think that my previous statement applies...run, hide, escape and evade should be the priority. There are stories coming out from survivors that just simply ducked down or played dead that were untouched. Obviously people that made it out first were fine too...but the most shocking was how people just dismissed this guy walking in as some dude dressed out for the movie...and how the shots were seen as pranks and firecrackers. Only when the theater alarms went off did people really evacuate.

    This all comes down to mindset. You should know where your exits are and properly possition yourself to possitively identify threats. I also try to avoid crowds and massive amounts of people...not necessarily in fear of a shooting or other random attack- but fear of a mass panic or mob. People are sheep now a days. If there isn't an app to tell them when or where to go they can't function. Ever pulled out a road map with someone in their teens or twenties? That says a lot about our culture.

    Anyhoot, I guess I better go buy more gun stuff before the next AWB
     
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  7. SteelyDan

    SteelyDan Junction City Active Member

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    My family might be in one of those theaters, malls or campuses where some psycho may start shooting. If you are carrying in one of those scenarios, you have my permission to take the shot. Knowing that mall security is ineffective and the police are minutes away, I would rather my chances with a CHL carrier stopping a slaughter.
     
  8. osterr1999

    osterr1999 Silverton, OR Active Member

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    Trust me Riot, if you get shot with a pistol while wearing a vest, it hurts more than a tickle. Will it kill you? No. Broken ribs? Maybe. When you think about it, you are still stopping the bullet's energy with your body, so it's going to leave a mark.
     
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  9. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

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    When the adreline is running, you won't even notice a hit to armor unless it is from a significant caliber.
     
  10. lamrith

    lamrith tacoma Active Member

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    Yeah he would be pumped up with adrenalin, but don't tell me he would not notice a hit. Ask any LEO who has been hit. They are typically way jacked up with the lead starts flying and yet they say the same thing, it hurt like hell, it isn't hollywood were they take it and keep walking then find out later they were hit.. Sure a bigger caliber will have more affect, no argument there, but a hand cannon is not the only thing that he would feel.

    Here is some pictures to show you why it would make a difference if a CCW returned fire.
    The Box O' Truth #16 - Level IIIA Armor - Page 1
     
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  11. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I've never taken a hit to armor, but I've personally known two guys who have, and have read accounts of others... Taking a pistol caliber hit to NIJ IIIa is like getting hit in the diaphram with a fastball.. knocks the wind out of you, makes you stagger a bit, can even drop you to your knees if you're not expecting it. It's obviously possible that a person could be so amped up that it doesn't have much of an effect, but odds are, if you're landing COM, you're going to have an effect. Add multiple shots, and you're going to have an even better effect.. plus, he's probably using expired, cheap armor, and multiple shots to the same zone may even penetrate. Whatever the case, it's pretty hard to deliver accurate fire when you're being pounded by fastballs.

    I generally drill for non-standard FTSs (generally 3-4 to the chest before 2 to the head, or thereabouts) if I'm within effective fire range. If I'm not, then I just do COM until I am.
     
  12. btrombla

    btrombla oregon New Member

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    When deciding your tactics while responding to your threat your first thaught should be, "What is MY desired outcome?".

    I keep my priorites as such. First priority is protecting my son's life and his safety. He is the most important person to me and it is my responsibility to keep him safe as well as the rest of my family. My second priority is self preservation. If I am killed how am I to protect him? Third and final priority is the safety of the public. The other people have the choice to carry a weapon to defend themselfs and they choose not to carry a gun. Honestly that is not my problem and I am not going to put myself in extreme danger to help people who choose not to help themselvs. If an opportunity presents its self to take down a person putting someone else in danger and I can accomplish my first two goals by all means I will step in.

    As far as the Movie shooting I believe my action would have been to get myself and my son to cover and stay put in an area I can defend. If the badguy comes for us I take him out. If he gets close and I know I could take him out to save others I take him out.

    Honestly since I have heard of these incidents I have also started carrying a different weapon. I have moved away from my CW9 with a mag capacity of 7 rounds to my Glock 19 which has 16 rounds with the first mag plus one and a 17 rounder to back that up. I think that would better prepare me to engage a subject who is carrying a high capacity weapon. Eight rounds would go way to fast out of my CW9.

    These are just my opinions. Stay safe Brothers and Sisters!
     
  13. mrblond

    mrblond Salem OR Well-Known Member

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    This is my opinion and simply my opinion. As much as you can think about and try and plan what you may do if somethink like Colorado happens to you, as soon as it does happen, all that planning goes out the door. I am sure most people will see themselves as drawing their weapon and taking out the shooter put remember, its all about perspective.

    Lets say your sitting in the theater and you hear shots and people begin to panic and they start screaming and running. you take cover and draw your weapon. you spot the shooter then take aim for a clear shot. now at the same time someone on the other side of the theater is also armed and they take cover and draw their weapon. they look and they don't see the shooter, they see you.
    You end up in the news as the second shooter and either in the hospital or in the ground. Myself, I would do my best to escape and then defend myself only if I had to. I am not a hero but then again, Heros tend to not come home.
     
  14. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    There's a saying in the tactics world- You never rise to the occasion, you fall to your highest level of training.

    This sort of thing has, unfortunately, happened... the odds are extremely low that you'll ever find yourself in a situation where use of bullet force is legal, let alone justified, let alone necessary, and then the odds that some other CCWer will ALSO be there, ready and willing to bust caps, is exponentially lower still.... so, much like rogue lightening and meteorites, it's just not worth it to bother your mind with.
     
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  15. Thebastidge

    Thebastidge 10411 NE Fourth Plain Blvd Vancouver WA 98662 Well-Known Member

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    Emergency Management Institute

    I accomplished this training yesterday. The only thing I would take exception with is the advice to only confront the shooter as a last resort. That's okay advice if you're under-prepared for such a confrontaion, but there are tools widely available for you to use in such a scenario that would put you on an even footing with any shooter or the police, for that matter. If your conscience can take doing nothing while other people are murdered, by all means; hide yourself away as long as you can... Not much place to hide in a movie theater.

    Sheriff's Office News

    (My emphasis added.)

    Sometimes you have no choices. Per the FEMA training I posted above, avoidance might be your best strategy. However, the first two options may be eliminated before you begin, and in that case hesitation will kill you. Far better to take the aggressive, proper reaction in my opinion, to stop the killer ASAP.

    As for all the "how" questions... It's not as hard to keep your head under fire as people make it out to be. It's not that hard to see who's shooting in a confined space. It's not that hard to tell who the bad guy is, if he's shooting up a crowd, or who the good guy is- he's the one who stops when his target is down.

    And really, how likely is it that there will be other concealed carriers in the crowd who aren't in your group? We tend to flock together.

    I'm not expecting anyone to go out of their way to be a hero- I won't. But if I were in that theater, I would have returned fire without hesitation. Any other option would have been to huddle in front of my lady like three brave young men did, who are sadly now dead and only managed to save one person each.

    By all reports, the Colorado shooter was wearing riot gear, not body armour. No more effective against return fire than football pads and soccer shin guards.
     
  16. Misterbill

    Misterbill Yakima County, Washington New Member

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    My first impulse is to not get shot. Frankly that means making use of available cover and seeing WTF is going on before anything else. If I'm in the middle of watching a movie, I'm pretty much in condition white. If you're honest, you will admit that so most likely, are you.

    I've been in enough SHTF situations (including gunfire unexpectedly happening in my presence) that I know I react pretty fast. But that reaction has always been first and foremost, defensive. ONLY after me and those I'm responsible for are safe, do I even think about offensive reaction.

    From the descriptions of the Aurora shooting, I have doubts that a CCW holder would have made any difference. They certainly COULD have, but in real life? Probably not, just for fear of hitting bystanders.

    I DO know that I will be working harder to stay in condition yellow even while engrossed in a movie. But I have no illusions that my first reaction will be to get myself and loved ones behind available cover before doing anything else. Running with the rest of the sheep I WON'T do, just because I don't know exactly where the shooter is or if he has friends.

    It's the worst possible situation to be in. When I've been there I can tell you for sure how I will react. Since my chances of being present in a mass shooting event approximate ZERO, probably gonna be all conjecture at this point.
     
  17. Thebastidge

    Thebastidge 10411 NE Fourth Plain Blvd Vancouver WA 98662 Well-Known Member

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    There is no "cover" in a movie theater. There's barely "concealment". The whole point of a movie theater is a clear line of sight for EVERYONE in the theater.

    If someone comes in through an emergency exit door, that would immediately jack my alert level up. Even when they come in through the regular door partway through the movie I always check them out. They're almost always right next to the screen and very visible.
     
  18. mrblond

    mrblond Salem OR Well-Known Member

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    I do have to say, in the last movie theaters I have been, then Emergency exits have been in recesses, almost behind the screen. you could see someone enter, if it was lit outside but after that, all you would see is the muzzle flashes.
     
  19. chemist

    chemist Beaverton OR Well-Known Member

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    I think that even in the darkened theater, it would be all too obvious who the BG was: the one spraying without praying. I like to think that I'd take the shot, but who knows how it would go down.

    One thing's for sure - the only shot that's guaranteed to not hit the target is the one that's never fired.
     
  20. ArgentineSteel

    ArgentineSteel Vancouver, WA Active Member

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    When I think through options and lines of fire in a crowded building you just won't have any ideal opportunities to confront a shooter, unless you encounter them before they engage the crowd, like the one BG shot in the Aurora church shooting. A movie theater situation is better than some crowd scenes, as the seating is sloped and you have a better view to the BG, but when the crowd panics you won't have any safe shot at all. Stay low, not low enough to get trampled. Try to keep you and yours out of the direct line of fire, watch for companion shooters and ambushes. Move to the exit away from gun fire.