CC killed by toddler

[Blackcobra]

Forgive me if it's been mentioned before, but does anyone know the make and model of the gun? I looked pretty hard, I saw Glock mentioned on here, but it wasn't definitive that was in fact the gun in question.

I haven't been able to find anything, either:

<broken link removed>

While it is still not known what type of gun was used in this case, gun experts, like Ball, said many newer firearms no longer feature outward safety measures. Instead, most safety mechanisms are now on the insides of guns.

 

[Swedish K]

Unfortunate situation here. Sounds like the "cc purse" received as a Christmas gift will haunt the husband and child alike for the rest of their lives. Changing to a new method of carry should probably be eased into and a shopping trip with a passel of young children was probably not the best time to try it out. I never have understood women leaving the purse in the cart (with or without a firearm), then again I don't carry a purse. Sounds like that purse CC compartment needs a redesign. My kid isn't even a year and he absolutely loves zippers so if he was allowed to handle the purse every zipper would be opened in a matter of minutes.
If you have young kids or contact with young kids off body carry is a bad idea. I used to use an inside jacket pocket on occasion but with the kid it's either iwb or out of his reach just just to prevent his accidentally discovering it.

 

[albin25]

While it is still not known what type of gun was used in this case, gun experts, like Ball, said many newer firearms no longer feature outward safety measures. Instead, most safety mechanisms are now on the insides of guns.[/I]

Gun Expert? Most safety measures are now on the insides of guns? really? Can't figure out what type of gun? I think we can rule out rifle or shotgun so that would leave hand gun.
Now, as far as what make or model...that's usually engraved on the gun. Maybe they're afraid to ask the 2 year old to give them the gun back, so they can look at it.
Who recommended him...Bloomberg?

 

[solv3nt]

there needs to be more in depth training. Like 40 hours of it. Live training with paint loads of something. Real life scenario training.

Playing the devil's advocate, what would 40 hours of training and scenerio training done to prevent this accident/negligence?

 

[U201491]

Playing the devil's advocate, what would 40 hours of training and scenerio training done to prevent this accident/negligence?

None.
Two accidents I recall at Tri County were by LE. One shot a hole in a table in the clubhouse and the other shot himself in the knee on a range. they had had a great deal of training and the accidents still occurred. No different than driving a vehicle, flying, rock climbing, skiing, skydiving, scuba diving. bike riding, swimming, etc; .... Sheite happens to the best trained and experienced in everything.
When Anto's cease to have accidents and cease to die and live forever then they will have credibility, but until then they are empty voices and brainless feces in my estimation.
They warrant zero attention an credibility and are an "accident by design" on America that needs control and isolation like a virus. Maybe exile.

 

[CoastRange57]

Playing the devil's advocate, what would 40 hours of training and scenerio training done to prevent this accident/negligence?

A lot in my opinion. Oregon CCL / CHL laws are woefully lacking in proper fire arms training. They teach basic gun safety and that is it. Somebody who has no experience can go to a class for 2 hours, get the certificate, pay their money and get their CHL. No skills testing, no range qualification or basic gun handling, no laws education and testing.

This is not Cagney and Lacey rolling around San Francisco pulling their little snub nose .38's out of their purses and taking down some thug with a 1911. There are huge amounts of resources available today. Books, videos, and situational training simulations for anybody who is a CHL to avail themselves of. Being able to handle a situation with out going to gun is what needs to be taught. Simple tactical behaviors like on body carry need to be taught.

My gun safety was taught to me by my old man, whom I paid close attention to, because if his barked out goddam**t boy listen to me" did not get my attention, his Wellington boot up my a** did. He was a military veteran, and life long hunter.

Continuing education in these practices is very important. We go to simulation training several times a year. We set up scenarios on our own range. I have 3 military veterans in our family who kicked down a lot of doors in Iraq and Afghanistan. They have zero tolerance for any kind of f ups with weapons. They have trained their wives and some of their wives friends too on this. Gun is under your control at all times. Do not lose control of your gun.

 

[Blackcobra]

A lot in my opinion. Oregon CCL / CHL laws are woefully lacking in proper fire arms training. They teach basic gun safety and that is it. Somebody who has no experience can go to a class for 2 hours, get the certificate, pay their money and get their CHL. No skills testing, no range qualification or basic gun handling, no laws education and testing.

Has this changed? When I lived in Oregon and got my carry permit, I had to take a safety course from a licensed instructor that included range time and a written test. It also included gun handling - muzzle/trigger discipline, gun mechanics for your particular weapon - whether DA/SA, decocker, revolver, etc.

Maybe I just had a good instructor that cared about the end result, rather than one collecting his fee? It was also one-on-one time.

 

[Blackcobra]

Has this changed? When I lived in Oregon and got my carry permit, I had to take a safety course from a licensed instructor that included range time and a written test. It also included gun handling - muzzle/trigger discipline, gun mechanics for your particular weapon - whether DA/SA, decocker, revolver, etc.

Maybe I just had a good instructor that cared about the end result, rather than one collecting his fee? It was also one-on-one time.

Also, not saying this was sufficient, but was left somewhat impressed when compared to other states [ahem - Washington] where you just pay $60, give a thumbprint and get your license in the mail.

 

[solv3nt]

A lot in my opinion. Oregon CCL / CHL laws are woefully lacking in proper fire arms training. They teach basic gun safety and that is it. Somebody who has no experience can go to a class for 2 hours, get the certificate, pay their money and get their CHL. No skills testing, no range qualification or basic gun handling, no laws education and testing.

Why stop at CCL/CHL? Why not mandate all of that training for new gun purchases? Where do you stop? As stated earlier, cops are always leaving their guns in bathrooms, or unlocked in their car that their kid has access to (Washington 2 years ago or so). Again, what will 40 hours of mandated live fire training do to prevent this sort of negligence?

 

[CoastRange57]

I think that is the base course. I took one in a hall up town over about an hour and a half. Written test, pretty much open book. It covered all you mention, but no range time. Very basic gun handling similar to Hunter Safety. No one on one time at all.

No work on why you carry or the situations that would require a weapons deployment or use. Maybe is it just me, but my training is way above the average CHL, and so do a lot of people I know go way beyond the basic level. I am never one for more government, but this course out line needs tightened up in my opinion.

 

[CoastRange57]

Why stop at CCL/CHL?

Since he use of a concealed weapon is usually self defense, the training makes sense.

Why not mandate all of that training for new gun purchases?

You are reaching here a bit. We are specifically talking about CHL training.

Again, what will 40 hours of mandated live fire training do to prevent this sort of negligence?

Your original post said scenario training as well. 40 hours of live fire training is probably a bit much. A pretty well rounded outline covering a lot of pertinent material that would include 10 hours of live fire training should put a beginner in a situation to be safe. Additional time could be spent on the scenario, laws, criminal behavior, situational awareness, threat assessment, avoidance. 40 hours is a lot of training. A base course could be developed that could easily be taught in half that time.

I have hundreds of hours of that type of training and still seek it out when I can.

 

[solv3nt]

Since he use of a concealed weapon is usually self defense, the training makes sense.



You are reaching here a bit. We are specifically talking about CHL training.



Your original post said scenario training as well. 40 hours of live fire training is probably a bit much. A pretty well rounded outline covering a lot of pertinent material that would include 10 hours of live fire training should put a beginner in a situation to be safe. Additional time could be spent on the scenario, laws, criminal behavior, situational awareness, threat assessment, avoidance.

I have hundreds of hours of that type of training and still seek it out when I can.

My point is when you start giving the government an inch, you will never get it back. Also, nobody has clearly proven that more training can/will prevent negligence. As stated above, local/county/state/federal cops still negligently shoot their gun while cleaning it, or leave it in the bathroom stall, and they have a lot more training than 40 hours.....

 

[CoastRange57]

I completely agree with you there.

My point is that there is not a base level of training other than simple gun handling involved in the Oregon CH process. As far as an increased level of training, most people who I know that have military training or some level of law enforcement training, or even private tactical training are usually better trained to handle " situations" involving guns and security.

That being said, both military and LE are merely segments of society, and there are dumb azzes in both like there are in all elements of society. I think the numbers of ND's versus the millions of hours that weapons are safely carried is clear though.

 

[solv3nt]

That being said, both military and LE are merely segments of society, and there are dumb azzes in both like there are in all elements of society. I think the numbers of ND's versus the millions of hours that weapons are safely carried is clear though.

Approximately 50% of households have guns in the home. That means that there's a cross section of the United States where half of the homes have guns in them. The sample of gun owning households is a much larger population than military and LE. Don't you suppose that there are many more idiots doing stupid things with firearms from a much larger sample?

My point is that let's say that you make a universal law across the US that requires 40+ hours of training, then sometime later, we have an issue of negligence by a non-CHL individual. The anti-gun folks will seize on the opportunity and suggest that we require 40+ hours of training for all gun owners. New laws are a slippery slope, as most of them are never repealed.

Should gun owners train? Absolutely, they should always train, practice, and be vigilant. Do I think that the government should make more restrictions, absolutely not.

 

[Caveman Jim]

Does anyone remember that gun ownership and any type of carry is a 2A right? Not a privilege.
Just checking....

 

[U201491]

Why stop at CCL/CHL? Why not mandate all of that training for new gun purchases? Where do you stop? As stated earlier, cops are always leaving their guns in bathrooms, or unlocked in their car that their kid has access to (Washington 2 years ago or so). Again, what will 40 hours of mandated live fire training do to prevent this sort of negligence?

The 2nd Amendment has no requirement for any training at all.

 

[solv3nt]

The 2nd Amendment has no requirement for any training at all.

But, but, but, think of the children!

 

[Caveman Jim]

Yeah but but but, their fears should NEVER trump our rights!!!!!

 

[mjbskwim]

I carry a glock 27.
With an empty chamber.

Condition 3 - Israeli Method. I did the same when I carried my G19 for a short time.

Maybe y'all should look into single action revolvers?

 

[Blackcobra]

Maybe y'all should look into single action revolvers?

I carry a 1911 condition 1 - that's why I only owned a Glock for a short time.

I have also carried my Sig P220 with decocker. Just won't do Glock