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CC employee CC with CHL?

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Nick Burkhardt, Jan 7, 2015.

  1. Nick Burkhardt

    Nick Burkhardt NE Oregon Well-Known Member

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    This is a question from an Oregon Community College employee with a current Oregon CHL: Can they concealed carry at work?

    The Administrative manual states:

    (the) College prohibits employees from carrying concealed or visible weapons while on campus.
    No person who is not specifically exempted from this policy shall bring, possess, conceal or use a weapon on or at district property, activities under the jurisdiction of the College or interscholastic activities administered
    by a voluntary organization approved by the State Board of Education.


    Then further down the page:

    The following persons are exempt from this policy:
    1. Peace officers, on or off-duty, as defined under Section 161.015(4) of the Oregon Revised Statutes.
    2. Students or other persons who are actively participating in an event or program at the college that requires the possession of firearms and who have obtained permission in advance from the College president or designee to bring firearms onto district property.
    3. Holder of concealed weapons permits.


    So which is it? Are they a "person" or an "employee" first?
     
  2. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    It isn't "first", it is set, subset, superset

    An employee is a person.

    All employees are persons.

    Not all persons are employees.

    So, without reading the whole manual, it *seems* to say that *any* person who is a "holder of concealed weapons permits" is exempt, and I would interpret that to include employees, unless they specifically state that it doesn't apply to employees.
     
  3. Nick Burkhardt

    Nick Burkhardt NE Oregon Well-Known Member

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    That is how I read it too, but the "College prohibits employees from carrying concealed or visible weapons while on campus." is the only sentence that is underlined on the two pages that address firearms.
     
  4. Nick Burkhardt

    Nick Burkhardt NE Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I am really going in circles with this one. The College is not one of "Oregon's seven university campuses" that are subject to the State Board of Higher Education's 2012 gun banning policy.

    By the way, there are several registered sex offenders enrolled at this college and the employee has been warned by coworkers about which students to avoid.
     
    BoonDocks36 likes this.
  5. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    <- Why there aren't any school shootings in Israel!
    Teacher with long gun slung over her shoulder!!!

    I'm betting they would consider the employee to have broken the rules and fire them even if they have a permit. I think something similar was posted a while ago and thrown around and my previous sentence is what seemed to be the consensus. They can't control what someone coming onto campus has on them but they can for an employee.


    Deen
    NRA Life Member, Benefactor Level
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    "A gun is like a parachute. If you need one and don't have it, you'll probably never need one again!"
     
  6. Nick Burkhardt

    Nick Burkhardt NE Oregon Well-Known Member

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    My advise was to ask the union rep, but the person is a non-represented part timer. That and store a pistol in a truck vault in their vehicle.
     
  7. PiratePast40

    PiratePast40 Willamette Valley Well-Known Member

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    I would not recommend going to the union rep, or anyone else associated with the school for legal advice. There are several examples of people asking about employer policy and then being harassed and fired. Interpretation from The Heretic seems pretty simple and straightforward.

    Burdick, Prozanski, and their ilk tried to insert CHL carry restrictions into schools during the last legislative session and failed. Expect to see the same attempt soon. Did you send your FREE donation to OFF last year? Have you sent the one for 2015 in yet?

    Unless you have legal status to do so, might be a bad idea to give it out legal advice. Pointing out the wording is one thing, legal advice is another.
     
  8. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I would ask a lawyer, one experienced in interpreting employee policies like this.

    The problem is that if you get it wrong you can be fired.

    Hell, if any employer wanted to, they can generally fire anybody for almost any reason, except for "protected reasons" (ADA, ethnicity, religion, gender, age, etc.) and even then they will make up crap.

    Personally, I wouldn't work for an employer like that - one which puts employees in contact with dangerous people and then prohibits them from protecting themselves.
     
    BoonDocks36 and mjbskwim like this.
  9. 308

    308 ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Platinum Supporter Silver Supporter

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    Last time I checked, concealed means to prevent disclosure or recognition of and/or to place out of sight. That being said...
     
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  10. AMT

    AMT Vancouver, WA. Gold Supporter Gold Supporter

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    I would have to say that if you are receiving a paycheck from the college, you are an employee.

    My guess is that you also signed some paperwork when you where hired. In that paperwork it also probably explains what you can and can't do.
     
    mjbskwim likes this.
  11. Brigadier

    Brigadier WA Member

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    Seems to me, if the employee has a CWP, that trumps the employee restriction. Anyway, concealed means concealed. And if you do end up having to use it, so you lose your job. Better than the alternative.
     
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  12. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    What they don't know won't hurt them
    Unless they try to hurt
    Prevent them from seeing
    Don't talk about it from now on, with anyone
    There! :D
     
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  13. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    There ya go,simplifying things,sheesh.
    I am sure it says something in the employee packet the friend should have at home and are asking to find someone to tell them what they want to hear.
    Now,if she documents that she was told to avoid a student,because he's a SO,then she may do OK after being fired.
    I have a friend that could care less what "policy' is compared to making it home safe.And she has a very good job.
    You need to set your priorities. Just like I used to tell the pipe layers,do something unsafe and maybe never work again..Not do what you are told cause it's unsafe and get fired for it?
    Live to work another day....for a different employer.
    You won't keep your job if you get raped or murdered in the parking garage
     
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  14. Nick Burkhardt

    Nick Burkhardt NE Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the replies. This small college is a disorganized mess. Student files are sometimes indexed by last name, in some areas by class title and sometimes by the teachers name. Employees are classified as either instructors who work under one contract, supports staff who work under a different union contract and less than 30 hour part time who have no contract. The person was hired as part time no benefits (thanks Obama) but often works 30 hours or over a week and should be reclassified as a union position.

    My advice was to lock it in a car safe until they can be brought under union protection and are no longer an "at will" employee who can be terminated for an unrelated reason. Keep pepper spray handy until then.
     
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  15. mkwerx

    mkwerx Forest Grove, OR Well-Known Member

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    It will do zero good locked in a car, because if she IS attacked, it will probably not be anywhere near her car. I'd also bet that pepper spray is likewise a banned item (weapon) in that same policy. Concealed means concealed, she should get a good concealable firearm, carry in a manner to avoid detection, and if she has to use it - her employment status is likely the least of her worries at that moment, and if the school administration had the balls to fire her for having a gun and protecting herself, the ensuing lawsuit might make her wealthy enough.

    On body carry is the only way to go if she's seriously concerned about being victimized - a gun in a purse not on her person is useless, and at much greater risk of being taken from her. Same with a gun in the car - what if her car is burgled while she's away from it, and the gun gets taken. A small defensive knife might likewise be of great utilitiy - the smaller KaBar TDI carried in a neck sheath would be virtually undetected - the chain would probably be ignored by folks figuring it's just a necklace.
     
  16. Gunguy45

    Gunguy45 Well-Known Member

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    Bottom line is that she's likely to get fired if she gets caught.

    For me, and anyone I'd advise, I have to say you need to look at your odds in the given situation.

    If the odds of you NEEDING that gun are moderate to high, well, better to lose a job than be DEAD.

    If it's a regular job where your odds of being at risk at work are low? Especially if it's a really GOOD job? then maybe being disarmed is something she can live with.

    It's all a crapshoot in the end. If she's unwilling to live with the odds, well, then she should CONCEAL that gun really well.

    If she can make a rational choice that she's at particularly low risk? well, maybe it's not worth it.

    This is all about CHOICE. And I'm sorry her employer is making some of those choices FOR her, but that's the way it is. Looking for a legal loophole? Good luck with that but she will be FIRED in the interim.

    To me, that's a big deal.
     
  17. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Well if she is asking about carrying,then I'm guessing she feels the odds may be there she will need the gun
     
  18. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Most people are not particularly adept at assessing risks.

    She may *feel* that way, but truly are the odds and are there other things she could do to mitigate them - like partnering with someone who walks with her to/from her car?
     
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  19. Qjay

    Qjay Vancouver, not BC, Washington, not DC Active Member

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    If she's not in a Phys. Ed. or Sports Related field....

    A Flashbang Holster may be appropriate.
    The link may or may not be working, so here is the URL, just in case:
    http://flashbangholsters.publishpath.com/the-flashbang

    If it's a part time job, she can probably find the same thing elsewhere, even nearby, if she were to somehow get caught AND it were to cause problems.

    I'm a big fan of this type of holster when "paired" with an appropriate carry piece, and not just because I like the pictures. ;)

    If she is still unsure, consider a Taser or one of the Kimber sprays. There's even a 50 states legal (pistol-shaped) defensive fire extinguisher which could be carried in such a low-visibility holster.

    She has a lot of options; I especially favor those added by a very small neck knife, if she has any familiarity or willingness to learn about basic defensive knife tactics.
     
  20. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    If she got caught,you can bet the reason she was fired would follow her.
    If she got caught because she saved her own or someone else's life,then she could reassess cc at her next career
     
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