CBP instructor dies after accidental shooting at west Miami-Dade gun range

[2506]

So what? They were TRAINING and according to the article, demonstrating something. The poster wanted to know why they would shoot twice... are you another person that has never done "double taps" in training??????

My point was, I was taught a few things. One, ALL guns are loaded; Two, never point a gun at something you're not willing to destroy.
Those two fundamental rules of gun safety were ignored.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel the only time you EVER point a gun at another person is if you intend to kill them. And that's exactly what happened.

 

[titsonritz]

So, they don't use blue guns anymore these days?

UTMs is the way to go, the offset firing pin will not fire a live round even if it is mistakenly loaded.

 

[titsonritz]

Every time I've taken a force on force class, the rules for maintaining a sterile environment are draconian -- one screw-up while being wanded or patted down when you're entering, and you're out. Doesn't matter that you honestly forgot about that backup knife or kubaton or firearm -- you're riding the pine. This is a good reminder as to why those rules are enforced so stringently.

Yep, as it should be to prevent this kind of crap that makes us all look bad. Force on force classes are some the most beneficial and straight up fun training experiences available, one should not have to be concerned with dying over it and it is 100% preventable.

 

[bbbass]

My point was, I was taught a few things. One, ALL guns are loaded; Two, never point a gun at something you're not willing to destroy.
Those two fundamrental rules of gun safety were ignored.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel the only time you EVER point a gun at another person is if you intend to kill them. And that's exactly what happened.

Yes, but IMO your point was NOT on point in reply to my question to the other poster about whether he had ever done double taps. My question was to address the bit about why he shot twice. Your response to me was that there is a big diff between aiming at targets and shooting at people. I repeat, as a response to my statement, so what? You're just being argumentative.

EVERYBODY, knows you ignore the basic rules of gun safety at your own risk. I/me/myself would never participate in such a demonstration, even with blue guns. Clear enough???

 

[titsonritz]

My point was, I was taught a few things. One, ALL guns are loaded; Two, never point a gun at something you're not willing to destroy.
Those two fundamental rules of gun safety were ignored.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel the only time you EVER point a gun at another person is if you intend to kill them. And that's exactly what happened.

Have you ever taken a force on force class? Pointing "guns" at each other is an integral part of it, but when the safety rule of no live ammo isn't followed, this is what can happen. Again, 100% preventable human error.

 

[bbbass]

For those of us unfamiliar (me) with the kind of "force on force" training being done by the CBP at that facility:

Action shooting, IDPA and USPSA matches introduce the shooter to new scenarios. Moving, reloading, and shooting against time build skills needed to live through a gunfight.
Matchmakers can design stages to simulate a self-defense situation. Multiple targets, moving targets, hostages that can't be shot. Competitions design stages to make the shooter begin to think with a gun in their hands. But, the targets are still not shooting back.

Reality-Based Scenarios

If a person is serious about defending themselves and their loved ones, force on force is a must.

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From flat range and competition shooting, one's marksmanship skills will become second nature. It's now time to shoot against a human adversary.

The scenarios developed by professional trainers mimic situations a citizen may encounter.

• A carjacking at a busy intersection or in the midst of civil unrest
• An attack at a grocery store parking lot
• A robbery at the ATM
• A home invasion scenario

These are only some scenarios out of many.
With the role players ready, the scenario plays out and induces stress and fear in the trainee. Human adversaries move unpredictably and quickly.
With fear and adrenaline, the human mind undergoes some interesting changes. For example, shooters can experience tunnel vision and auditory exclusion.

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These physiological changes do not occur when target shooting or competing. But, when another human with a real gun is trying to shoot you, your response changes and the training experience becomes invaluable.
Here's a highlight video from one of our Force on Force classes:

Why Are Reality-Based Scenarios So Important?

The old adage that you will "revert to the level of your training" is absolutely true in a real-life defensive situation.
You will not rise to new heights of performance when you find yourself in a gunfight.
If you have not trained at a level that mimics a violent encounter, your mind, and thus your body, cannot respond in a way that ensures your survival.

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It doesn't matter if you shoot at the range often or have the best home defense gun, if you cannot read a situation quickly, make fast decisions, and solve complex problems and situations, you'll likely be in a bad situation in a real deadly conflict.

How Does Force on Force Training Work?

Each scenario is designed to put the trainee in a situation that induces stress and fear. The brain begins to perform at a higher level of output each time a stressful situation occurs. The process of repeatedly training at a high level of stress and fear inoculates the trainee against poor performance.

The role of the 'attacker' is to move quickly and unpredictably as the scenario unfolds. The 'attacker' may be shooting at the trainee or coming at them with a knife or club.
The trainee will learn that violence often occurs at arm's length. And getting their gun into action is more difficult than drawing from concealment at the range.
The speed at which the attack occurs forces quick decision making and problem-solving with a gun in hand. Remember, the vast majority of violent encounters occur from three feet to nine feet. The attack lasts an average lasts three seconds with an average of three rounds fired.

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Force on Force Gear and Equipment

Firearms

Most trainers that offer force on force training will provide the training weapons and gear.
It is absolutely critical that no live (lethal) ammunition is present in the training area. The firearms are real guns that are modified. Rifles use a special bolt while pistols use a barrel that do not allow live ammunition to chamber. The firearms will only chamber and fire training ammunition.
Other options may include the use of Airsoft or paintball guns. Though not as realistic as training with the guns a person may carry daily, the threat of being hit with a painful projectile makes the training and the learning effective.

Ammunition

The most common ammo used in force on force are marker rounds from UTM or Simunitions.
The ammunition allows the gun to fire, to have recoil and muzzle flip, and will fire a projectile that hits with some authority so you feel it. Some ammunition is designed to mark you with paint like in paintball.

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Protective Gear

Because the firearms are shooting a projectile, face and eye protection are mandatory. There is no shortage of scenario-based training products in the market.
Many force on force trainers use a full helmet with a protective shield to provide a wide field of view. Goggles with a face shield and head protection can also be used. Gloves are recommended to protect your hands as well as a groin protector.
The rounds are going to hurt you and may cause bruising or leave a welt. That is part of force on force training. Getting 'shot' shortens the learning curve.
Pain is a great teacher. It will help you develop skills to avoid attacks, use cover, and create space between you and your attacker(s). For this reason, trainers discourage students from using body armor unless they do so for work.

Force on Force: The Bottom Line

Force on force training is critical to your development as an armed citizen. There is a reason why law enforcement and the military use reality-based training often.

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You should be comfortable and confident with your firearm before seeking this type of advanced training. Take advantage of the training at your local range as well as competitive events like IDPA or USPSA matches to learn how to run your gun and shoot.
Force on force classes are an investment in you. One class, like one match, will not make you a gunfighter. Be prepared to invest in several classes to learn how you perform under stress.
Finally, make the decision and book your force on force class. Soak up every nugget of knowledge your trainers share. After, think of different scenarios to continue training your mind to deal with them.
As Col. Cooper said so, "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician". Training is what makes you armed.

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Filed Under: Personal Defense Tagged With: fof



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[titsonritz]

^^^All that.

https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/weaponized-geometry-one-person-search.423011/

 

[titsonritz]

Two to the chest, one to the head…. it's how I ride.

I like to stitch from groin to head, but ammo to expensive to practice this!

One the things I've been working on is putting rounds on target the moment my pistols clears the holster prior to my support hand making contact with the gun then with my first aimed shot going straight to the pumpkin after 2 or 3 shots have stitched the "bad guy" as my weapon comes up to eye level.

 

[WillametteWill]

It was force on force training where a live weapon was introduce into a sterile environment.

Every time I've taken a force on force class, the rules for maintaining a sterile environment are draconian -- one screw-up while being wanded or patted down when you're entering, and you're out. Doesn't matter that you honestly forgot about that backup knife or kubaton or firearm -- you're riding the pine. This is a good reminder as to why those rules are enforced so stringently.

^^^Yup. Some trainers/facilities/entities just don't take a sterile environment when using Sims seriously. I've been through a few this year at Gunsite and they take it very seriously (because of this type of "don't" example no doubt). Your firearms, knives, car keys...everything is left somewhere else. You are wanded and double checked. You don't leave and come back to the area. I have always felt safe there.

This is similar to about my biggest pet peeve with some trainers and that is mixing demonstrating with a blue / SIRT gun while carrying a real gun. To me this should absolutely never happen. It does, honestly, because of laziness. If you are treating your blue / SIRT gun like a real gun 100% I could see that it would be fine. But 90%+ of the people I see do this are not and pointing it at students and other places where it doesn't belong if there are real firearms withing a country mile.

I've used SIRT / blue guns in training were, again, everyone is wanded and searched and the environment is sterile. Very different from mixing the two. Hopefully some will learn from this loss, so we don't have to read about another one in a few years. My former department lost an officer during an impromptu field training session when another officer shot the other officer while demonstrating something to trainees. I knew both of them. So, it's kinda personal with me. Sorry, jumping off my soapbox now.

 

[Cavedweller]

I/me/myself would never participate in such a demonstration, even with blue guns.

Why not, if I may ask? They are not real weapons.

 

[nwslopoke]

For hunters and others that don't train in pistol defense scenarios, this may seem weird. But I'm still shocked by the number of NWFA members that don't seem to be familiar with double taps.

It seems more like an uncontrolled double tap. "I can't stop myself". I have a pistol with a very light trigger from the factory. Unmodified. It's easy to double tap when you aren't expecting. These tiny, snappy pistols, especially in 40 or 45.

It has to be especially traumatizing to shoot a friend. Feel bad for everyone in this case.

 

[titsonritz]

My former department lost an officer during an impromptu field training session when another officer shot the other officer while demonstrating something to trainees. I knew both of them. So, it's kinda personal with me. Sorry, jumping off my soapbox now.

Yikes, did it kill him/her or does he/she have the scar to remind him/her?

It is a good soap box to be on.

 

[WillametteWill]

Yikes, did it kill him/her or does he/she have the scar to remind him/her?

It is a good soap box to be on.

Officer that was shot died. Officer that fired the shot retired. It was unspeakably tragic as they were friends. With how training (should have) advanced in the past 25 years, and we know how to prevent situations like this, we should not be reading the article from the OP, but sadly we are.

There are a bunch of trainers out there (always have been, always will be) that are too complacent and/or do not give the serious nature of training with stuff that kills people enough deep thought and undivided attention. You can be doing everything right and humanity mixed with Murphy still sneaks in. Why open the door for mistakes even wider?

 

[Cerberus Group]

Two to the chest, one to the head…. it's how I ride.

In 30+ years, I've not heard of one civilian shooting where that was consciously done. You heard of any...if so, I'd really want to track that person down and do an interview.

Every civilian shooting that I've heard of, or seen video of...the shooter shoots until one of two things happens. Someone falls (DRT), or runs off.

Most all of the way I present my training is done from a combination of what I've experienced, other LE and civilians. I have done a buttload of AAI's over many years, and want to know why they did, what they did...which has to be creatively asked when their attorney is present.

 

[Cerberus Group]

EVERYBODY, knows you ignore the basic rules of gun safety at your own risk. I/me/myself would never participate in such a demonstration, even with blue guns. Clear enough???

Did I miss something? You post all about FoF and Sim type firearms...so to be clear, you won't participate in anything where blue gun or Sim type weapon training is presented?

 

[WillametteWill]

And to @Cerberus Group 's point, even the "inventor" of the Mozambique Drill, Mike Rousseau didn't actually do what the drill has turned into (two CM, one to the head). After his first two body shots did not stop the person, his third shot when low, into the neck, and hit the spinal column (same effect essentially). The head, on a two way range, is a very difficult target to hit consistently.

 

[titsonritz]

Did I miss something? You post all about FoF and Sim type firearms...so to be clear, you won't participate in anything where blue gun or Sim type weapon training is presented?

Not speaking for bbb, I think there was some confusion this was FoF incident gone awry and the assumption was a they were using live ammo in the traditional fashion but negligently executed. He posted #26 after looking up what FoF entails.

 

[titsonritz]

And to @Cerberus Group 's point, even the "inventor" of the Mozambique Drill, Mike Rousseau didn't actually do what the drill has turned into (two CM, one to the head). After his first two body shots did not stop the person, his third shot when low, into the neck, and hit the spinal column (same effect essentially). The head, on a two way range, is a very difficult target to hit consistently.

To further expand, it was picked up and thought by Jeff Cooper at Gunsite and adopted by LAPD SWAT in the early '80s but renamed the "Failure to Stop Drill" or simply "Failure Drill", concerned that "Mozambique Drill" might have racist overtones.

 

[po18guy]

Tough bunch! They used to whip illegals - now they shoot each other.

 

[Stomper]

In 30+ years, I've not heard of one civilian shooting where that was consciously done. You heard of any...if so, I'd really want to track that person down and do an interview.

Every civilian shooting that I've heard of, or seen video of...the shooter shoots until one of two things happens. Someone falls (DRT), or runs off.

Most all of the way I present my training is done from a combination of what I've experienced, other LE and civilians. I have done a buttload of AAI's over many years, and want to know why they did, what they did...which has to be creatively asked when their attorney is present.

You sir…. are too stoic, so LIGHTEN UP, Francis!


In reality, I would most likely just shoot center mass until the threat is ended, or empty the mag. Counting to three under sudden stress would take too much focus.