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The points of disagreement are:

1) Whether the criminal is pointing the gun at the house or the people in the house. I contend the criminal is ultimately pointing the gun at the people in the house. If he was sure there was nobody in the house, then he would not be pointing the gun at the house as there would be no threat to him coming from the house, therefore he is pointing the gun at the people he thinks are in the house.

2) Whether a person can assume the gun is real, and whether the criminal intends to use it in a lethal manner, and whether it is better to wait to find that out by waiting for the criminal to shoot first, thereby signaling his criminal and lethal intentions. I would assert that the simple act of pointing the gun at the house (and thereby the people in the house), the criminal is obviously signaling his/her intentions - i.e., he/she is up to no good and the safest assumption on the part of the people in the house is that he/she intends to shoot them if they show any inclination to stop their criminal activities. I assert that it is foolish to assume that a criminal will just stop at intimidation.
You're making a logic based argument and it's not working to convince people who seem to be argueing without logic being the foundation of their arguement. I've seemingly encountered the same scenario. For some reason a lot of respondents are percieving that the issue is the theft - the theft has nothing to do with the guy pointing the gun at the house, the two are entirely seperate for the purposes of why the criminal should be shot. Remove the gun from this situation and it's simply a POS stealing a C-converter and you don't really have much legal recourse except to call the police. Him threatening deadly force to anyone in that home changes the dynamic entirely.
 
In this situation I would tell my family to get away from the windows, get down, and call the cops.

I know most people here are confident in pulling off a headshot, but I think the most likely scenario would be return fire. In my opinion, this puts my family at quite a bit more risk. Especially if the other guys are armed and return fire as well.

I don't believe the criminals would start shooting up the house and bringing more attention to themselves if they get what they wanted with no resistance. Escalating would only bring more risk to anyone in the home.
 
In this situation I would tell my family to get away from the windows, get down, and call the cops.

I know most people here are confident in pulling off a headshot, but I think the most likely scenario would be return fire. In my opinion, this puts my family at quite a bit more risk. Especially if the other guys are armed and return fire as well.

I don't believe the criminals would start shooting up the house and bringing more attention to themselves if they get what they wanted with no resistance. Escalating would only bring more risk to anyone in the home.
I am confident in a disabling shot at 10 yards with my Shockwave loaded with 00 buckshot. This is what I have next to my bed for home defense.

YMMV
 
The point of the discussion will soon be moot if this passes in Oregon

HB 4073


This is Marty Wilde's effort to outlaw self defense in Oregon. You have to get to the bottom of the bill but here is the relevant part:

SECTION 6. Notwithstanding ORS 161.190, the justifiable use of physical force in selfdefense or in defending a third person under ORS 161.205 (5) is an affirmative defense when the defendant engaged in, directed or otherwise participated in wrongful conduct that was intended to cause the victim to be unavailable as a witness, and did cause the victim to be unavailable.

We know, it's gibberish, but here is the translation into English.

If you act in self defense, and the person against whom you defended yourself dies, you no longer have a presumption of innocence and will be presumed guilty.

As with virtually every bill now introduced, they politicians have injected a racial component. In their notes on the bill they included this:

1. Justified use of physical force: The law should not presume that a homicide victim acted unreasonably in his last moments. As the law stands, if a defendant files a claim of self-defense, admitting that they caused the death of another person, they must prove nothing; instead, the state must disprove their claim, beyond a reasonable doubt. This becomes an obvious problem when the victim cannot testify because the victim is deceased by the defendant's own hand. This is particularly important in cross-racial homicides, where the perception of threat is often unreasonably greater due to unconscious bias.
 
Well, anyways guys....

Of the 2 vehicles I leave outside, one doesn't have cats, and the other isn't a known target for thieves, plus it's too low to the ground for the typical floor jack.

I say we all "cat delete" and get our rigs tuned, screw the EPA!
 
I see you have an inflated, self-affirming sense of righteousness.

Your points aren't wrong, and they are likely a better way to navigate this crap hole system.

However, righteous people don't "laugh" at the unfortunate outcomes of others, no matter the circumstances.

If I were a criminal, I'd want more people to think like you. It'd make my life way easier
Whoever told you I was righteous lied!
As for making your life easier you haven't met me or been in my house uninvited!
 
I am confident in a disabling shot at 10 yards with my Shockwave loaded with 00 buckshot. This is what I have next to my bed for home defense.

YMMV
FYI I noticed a neat test of different loads at 10 yards in the link below. Getting away from pattern factor, one thing I find cool about #00 buck in terms of energy is it is the equivalent of getting shot by 9 .380 rounds simultaneously. That would hurt!


And of course the obligatory (and hilarious imo) Clint Smoth quote on #00 buck.

 
FYI I noticed a neat test of different loads at 10 yards in the link below. Getting away from pattern factor, one thing I find cool about #00 buck in terms of energy is it is the equivalent of getting shot by 9 .380 rounds simultaneously. That would hurt!


And of course the obligatory (and hilarious imo) Clint Smoth quote on #00 buck.

Interesting - the Eley Alphamax 12 ga ammo only seems to be available in the UK & Ozland?

Interesting results re the chokes and ammo

I have shot 3" magnum buckshot in my Shockwave and the difference in recoil between it and 2.75" "magnum" is significant, to say the least.
 

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