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Carrying concealed in Clackamas Comm. College

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by JC9995, Aug 19, 2009.

  1. JC9995

    JC9995 Greater "Clackamas" Active Member

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    I searched for this but couldn't find anything.

    OK, so here I find myself a middle aged father going back to school..... ugh.
    I have a permit, I carry nearly all the time..... EXCEPT at school.... why? Because I cant find out if I can legally or not. I need your help.
    The school has a reference, and ONLY this one reference from what I can tell, in their handbook. It states: "The College Board of Education, state and federal law mandates NO alcoholic beverages, illegal drugs or deadly weapons are allowed on college properties. (AR 4009.01) (Public law 101-226)"

    I looked up public law 101-266 and it only talks about drugs and alcohol. No mention of firearms.

    In my mind, since they say "state and federal law".... arent I exempt from that mandate being a permit holder? Any help you guys can provide would be great. ESPECIALLY links to better law code or rules for CCC.... Thanks a bunch guys!:thumbup:
     
  2. roguebowhunter

    roguebowhunter medford Member

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    in Oregon you can carry in schools, as long as you have a permit ...Don
     
  3. Malibu38368

    Malibu38368 Unincorporated WA Co. Member

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    Insofar as I can tell, CHL holders in Oregon can carry, concealed, on any school campus public or private.

    However, some schools require students to voluntarily give up their rights to carry while on campus as part of their admissions requirements. I know for a fact that Lewis & Clark does this, and I'm pretty sure that both Oregon State and Western do as well. This is actually not a violation of the ORS that I can tell. You can't be arrested for carrying on campus at a school that has banned it, but you can be expelled.

    If CCC doesn't have anything in their rules or regulations prohibiting it, then you should be fine. I wouldn't tell anyone, though.
     
  4. Benny503

    Benny503 Grants Pass Well-Known Member

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    Remember the keyword (concealed), that mean nobody I mean nobody know you are carrying. If SHTF at school and you use it right, that would be the last thing you have to think about breaking school law :)
     
  5. biggie24420

    biggie24420 Beaverton Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Yes as long as you keep it concealed you should be ok. Don't tell your friends don't brag about having a gun because people WILL hate on you......... trust me, I speak from personal experience. I hope it never happens but if some idiot comes to school with the intention of shooting up the place, that will be the only time people will find out that you have a firearm. By then who cares what the school policy is about guns. I rather be kicked out of the school then to be carried out in a body bag. I have been on many school campuses where I had my Glock concealed and actually stood there and BSed with the campus security or police hahahaha.......... just be cool and you will be ok.
     
  6. CEF1959

    CEF1959 Willamette Valley, Oregon New Member

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    I don't think the OP was asking how to get away with it. I think he was asking whether it's permitted. On that point, it's like trying to figure out whether you can park in a particular location. Why not just look in the CCC student conduct code (every college has one) or just call and ask?

    The notion that it's OK to carry concealed at any school in Oregon, public or private, if you have a CHL is bunk. A Medford School District employee was disciplined for that very thing, and she's involved in a 3 year legal challenge, which she may or may not win in the end. Carrying a firearm is prohibited at every state university in Oregon by administrative rule of the State Board of Higher Education. Community Colleges are not under the jurisdiction of the SBHE, and I don't know whether CCs in general (or CCC in particular) ban firearms on campus. I suspect so, but it would easier (and more authoritative) to find out from the college than asking people here.
     
  7. timbernet

    timbernet Boring, Oregon Member

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    That's only for students and staff, right? Because they have signed a Code-of-Conduct or whatever?

    If you are just visiting someone at a college (not the issue OP has, but I am curious) and you don't work there or go to school there, then shouldn't the state preemption cover you? I believe that is something that came from the ruling in the Medford teacher case - that yes, under ORS with a CHL you can carry at a school IF you are not an employee or student.... but that was for the K-12 system, don't know about colleges.
     
  8. Malibu38368

    Malibu38368 Unincorporated WA Co. Member

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    The administrative rule you refer to appears to be OAR 580-022-0045, Proscribed Conduct, whose heading reads thus: "Procedures to impose applicable sanctions may be instituted against any person engaging in any of the following proscribed conduct:" Subsection (3) relates to firearms: "Possession or use of firearms, explosives, dangerous chemicals, or other dangerous weapons or instrumentalities on institutionally owned or controlled property, unless expressly authorized by law, Board, or institutional rules (for purposes of this section, absence of criminal penalties shall not be considered express authorization)". This section resides within Division 22, and appears to be limited to the Oregon University System only. I'm not sure if there is a similar set of administrative rules elsewhere that covers community colleges, or primary or secondary schools.

    §166.360 (public buildings defined) and §166.370 (possession of firearms in public buildings, and exemptions) are the two relevant sections from the 2007 ORS. The former declares that, amongst others, public and private schools and colleges and universities are considered "public" buildings, and the latter that possession of a firearm in public buildings is a Class C felony, unless the possessor is exempted (such as being licensed to carry a concealed handgun). The 2007 ORS does not appear to explicitly allow an individual exempted under §166.370(3) from carrying in those locations defined in §160.360(1).

    I think we can all see the loophole that schools and universities are using to ban concealed carry on campus, but regardless of whether or not it is closed, any school can expel a student or fire a teacher, as alluded to earlier in this post; it speaks to the need to read a contract before signing it. But can they bar a private citizen with legitimate business from campus? As far as I know, that is as-yet undecided, but may well be addressed in the 2009 ORS, and quite easily so. There is also a question of what "institutionally owned" means, particularly where public schools and universities are concerned. (At most, a university could ask one to leave and perhaps seek arrest for trespass if they do not, but if the university is public, is the land also not publicly owned? If so, can you expel a citizen from publicly-owned land? I don't have an answer for this offhand.) More importantly, the word "may" is used in the OAR section, which means that by definition, it is not a blanket prohibition and allows schools to decide whether or not they wish to apply "applicable sanctions" to an individual "engaging in...proscribed conduct." I have it on reasonably good authority that the University of Oregon ignores this and permits any duly-licensed student to carry, while Oregon State appears to allow at least non-student visitors to do so.

    As an aside, the Shirley Katz case is a poor example here, as she was an employee at the time. As an employee, her employer can require, as a condition of her continued employment, that rights and privileges, otherwise legally protected, be temporarily suspended for the duration of employed or while acting as an agent of the company. If this was actually the case, I don't know and will say no more, but it really is not the same issue at all. The case of Jeffrey Maxwell is much more applicable to this discussion, and even that case is rather muddied.

    I do however concede that it does not appear the 2007 ORS provides an affirmative right for a duly licensed individual to carry concealed in public buildings.
     
  9. CEF1959

    CEF1959 Willamette Valley, Oregon New Member

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    Malibu, that's an excellent summary. I would just add a couple points.

    1. The definition of "public building" in ORS 166.360(4) includes not just the building, but any adjacent grounds. That means that carrying a firearm in or on the grounds of a school is a felony under ORS 166.370(1). But that prohibition doesn't apply if you have a CHL. ORS 166.370(3)(a).

    2. The state preemption statute, ORS 166.170(1), throws doubt on the validity of the schools' administrative rules barring firearms on campus, which apply even if you have a CHL. That statute provides that, "Except as expressly authorized by state statute, the authority to regulate in any manner whatsoever the sale, acquisition, transfer, ownership, possession, storage, transportation or use of firearms or any elements relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition, is vested solely in the Legislative Assembly."

    The question is whether that bars universities and other schools from restricting guns on their campuses. There are good arguments either way, and it may depend on who is being restricted. It may be that the school can institute rules on students and employees but not outsiders. We'll know more when the Katz case is decided. It was argued before the Oregon Court of Appeals a couple months ago. Although the specific issue involves an employee (an important point you made), what the court has to say about the preemption statute will provide clues as to its meaning in other contexts.
     
  10. kentsboots

    kentsboots Oregon Member

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    I asked the head of security at mt hood CC about 2 years ago , and all he said was "if nobodys knows you have it , then it shouldn't be a problem no matter where you are"

    this may be helpfull tho, dont know how accurate it is ...

    http://concealedcampus.org/index.php
     
  11. NK777

    NK777 West of Portland Member

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    As far as I know it isn't illegal to carry if licensed in or on school grounds. That being said it doesn't mean that you won't be expelled for doing so. With these things in mind I would carry very discretely. If they don't have signs posted stating that you can't they can not even charge you with trespass I don't believe unless it is something you should be aware of because it was in some kind of contract you signed. There are LAWS and there are school rules, I would put my faith in the law and not the school imposed rules.

    Mind you I didn't say you couldn't get into trouble CC'ing in/on campus. I merely stated that it is not illegal to do so as far as i can tell anyways.
     
  12. JC9995

    JC9995 Greater "Clackamas" Active Member

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    WOW,
    This is excellent info! Thanks guys! I didnt expect to get this much.

    I think I will contact the administration and find out straight from the horse's mouth.... my only concern is whether the particular person I get on the phone will know that the heck they are talking about. We will find out.
     
  13. JC9995

    JC9995 Greater "Clackamas" Active Member

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    OK guys heres the scoop.

    I just spoke to the department head for CCC campus security. He said as long as I am a current permit holder, AND keep it concealed there is NO ISSUE!
    I asked specifically if it was "just legal" to do so, but against school policy. He replied "It cant be". That Oregon law presides over schools trying to set policy. He said Lane County College tried this a little while ago, and was ruled against being able to set policy that wasnt congruent with state law. He said "Presedence has been set" and that it is legal and OK to carry concealed on campus!!! SWEET.

    Again, thanks for all the info, hopefully people find this as informational as I have.


    A side note: I gotta say I really like the Sheriff in Clackams County. As I understand it, CCC is the ONLY campus in Oregon that has armed campus security... they are actually deputized reservists of the Sheriff if I read it correctly.
     
  14. Benny503

    Benny503 Grants Pass Well-Known Member

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    JC, Thank you for your update :)
     
  15. Joe Link

    Joe Link Portland, OR Well-Known Member Staff Member Lifetime Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Before starting this website I began calling colleges around Oregon and Washington to inquire about their policies regarding concealed carry on campus. Unfortunately, that project fell by the wayside due to time constraints relating to this site. I can tell you that CCC prohibits students from carrying, but it is not against the law. If they find out they'll most likely expel you, but you won't face any charges unless you fail to leave the grounds when asked to do so.
     
  16. JC9995

    JC9995 Greater "Clackamas" Active Member

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    Not according to my discussion with campus security. Sounds like this may have changed since you looked into it, based on a presedence set by the Lane County ruling.:thumbup: