Carry Fully Loaded Magazines!

No_Regerts · Sep 4, 2016

Saw an incident recently after a shooting where number of shots fired couldn't be verified because the magazines weren't full. Officer had fired a duty round at the range after switching to ball because she didn't realize she should eject the round while switching duty mags for practice mags. She must have done it with all of her magazines at one time because she didnt have a single full magazine. In a shooting, your perception of what you did may be off and the number of rounds fired is critical. Easiest way to know is how many rounds you have missing from FULL magazines.

Joe13 · Sep 4, 2016

Aren't full mags the only good mags?

Edit:

I'm sure that's easier as a civy but even still you would think you would top off your mags.

Would she have intentionally under loaded them for wieght purposes?

Certaindeaf · Sep 4, 2016

I thought the armorer verified what was/is handed out/issued at the beginning of the shift and what is turned in at the end.
I'm sure different outfits have different policies though.

clearconscience · Sep 4, 2016

I do usually carry one less round than my mag carries. And most of my G17 mags have extenders on them.

Maybe I should write how many rds are in them on the side.

Nah, we'll let them guess.

clearconscience · Sep 4, 2016

If asked how many rounds did you fire,
Me: All of them.

Sgt Nambu · Sep 4, 2016

Or, as many as it took to stop his assault on my person and these innocent, nuns, Girl Scouts, infants and socialists over here!

No_Regerts · Sep 4, 2016

Certaindeaf said:
I thought the armorer verified what was/is handed out/issued at the beginning of the shift and what is turned in at the end.
I'm sure different outfits have different policies though.

We are issued ammunition and policy states you will have at least 3 full magazines and a full magazine +1 in the gun. We keep the ammo until requals every 6 months and shoot the stuff up and get all new carry ammo. The problem is we shoot every month in between and apparently she didnt drop her duty magazine and empty the chamber. She was firing the one duty round in the pipe.

No_Regerts · Sep 4, 2016

Joe13 said:
Aren't full mags the only good mags?

Edit:

I'm sure that's easier as a civy but even still you would think you would top off your mags.

Would she have intentionally under loaded them for wieght purposes?

3 or 4 9mm rounds cant weigh that much, I would think.

Diamondback · Sep 5, 2016

@No_Regerts Just outta curiosity, you guys issuing Gold Dots, HST or something else? Back when I first got my CPL most Wet Side LEA's considered GD's the "gold standard," but last I knew the dominoes were starting to fall on transition to HST for duty ammo.

(Standard carry load for me: 2x8 .45ACP 230gr Gold Dot in spare mags, 7+1 more in magwell/pipe. Would have switched to HST, except doofus me forgot to keep the paperwork on lot-numbers on that brick...)

Joe13 · Sep 5, 2016

No_Regerts said:
3 or 4 9mm rounds cant weigh that much, I would think.

Wasn't sure if she was outfitted with a vest full of mags.

Last VPD I saw had 4+ mags on the vest plus a good amount of other stuff so that's why I was curious about weight.

Follow up question to diamondback's; do y'all use whatever is the "best by cost" or is there really so much study on the HP's that you choose based purely off data?

Thanks

Camelfilter · Sep 5, 2016

Joe13 said:
...Follow up question to diamondback's; do y'all use whatever is the "best by cost" or is there really so much study on the HP's that you choose based purely off data?

Thanks

I've been using a combo of cost & data, but more towards what I can shoot well.

I carry a compact 9mm as EDC, and tried some Hirnaday hollow points with it ?147?gr, and couldn't hit very well. Probably could with a bunch more practice though.

I then tried Ruger 80gr ARX just on a whim. It's +P, or maybe ++P. With that my poa is my poi, with less recoil than my practice 115gr fmj rounds. That's currently loaded & in my bu mag.

AMProducts · Sep 5, 2016

clearconscience said:
If asked how many rounds did you fire,
Me: All of them.

"Why did you shoot this man 35 times?"
"because I ran out of bullets officer"

No_Regerts said:
We are issued ammunition and policy states you will have at least 3 full magazines and a full magazine +1 in the gun. We keep the ammo until requals every 6 months and shoot the stuff up and get all new carry ammo. The problem is we shoot every month in between and apparently she didnt drop her duty magazine and empty the chamber. She was firing the one duty round in the pipe.

I wonder what that's like... having a gun that's never in condition 0. I've always found the TTP's that develop around police gun handling to be absolutely bizarre.

Diamondback · Sep 5, 2016

The reason I started with Gold Dots, and am considering switching to HST, is following Mas Ayoob's advice about "carry what local LEO's use, so if you encounter some overambitious hack Ambulance Chaser you can rebut their Evil Nasty Bullets of Dooming Death with the fact that you only carry what the police trust their own lives and the safety of the community to."

No_Regerts · Sep 5, 2016

Diamondback said:
@No_Regerts Just outta curiosity, you guys issuing Gold Dots, HST or something else? Back when I first got my CPL most Wet Side LEA's considered GD's the "gold standard," but last I knew the dominoes were starting to fall on transition to HST for duty ammo.

(Standard carry load for me: 2x8 .45ACP 230gr Gold Dot in spare mags, 7+1 more in magwell/pipe. Would have switched to HST, except doofus me forgot to keep the paperwork on lot-numbers on that brick...)

We are using 147gr HST right now. Oddly enough, Federal and Speer are both under ATK.

Caveman Jim · Sep 5, 2016

clearconscience said:
If asked how many rounds did you fire,
Me: All of them.

Me: as many as it took to stop the threat....

No_Regerts · Sep 5, 2016

AMProducts said:
I wonder what that's like... having a gun that's never in condition 0. I've always found the TTP's that develop around police gun handling to be absolutely bizarre.

With striker fired guns, seems like Condition 0 and Condition 2 are virtually the same.

ma96782 · Sep 5, 2016

Caveman Jim said:
Me: as many as it took to stop the threat....

Ding, ding, ding.......WINNER of the chicken dinner.

+++++

OK, math time......PD only gives you a box of duty ammo (50 rounds) after qualification. They instruct you to use the new ammo for, "carry."

So.....3 mags at 15 rounds each = 45
Add one for the chamber that's = 46

So, what about your off duty weapon? Only 4 left......

HA, Ha, ha....I have some "left overs." And, over the years maybe the leftovers got switched up with your regular uniform duty ammo.

OMG....the field day when forensics gets involved. How many rounds does the officer have left? Did we find all of the brass, are you sure? Why are there WW marked brass at the scene mixed with Federal and Remington brass? Where are all of the bullets holes? How many bullets are still left in the body? Tough job huh?

Well, mine was too. Now, quit your whining.

Aloha, Mark

No_Regerts · Sep 5, 2016

Joe13 said:
Wasn't sure if she was outfitted with a vest full of mags.

Last VPD I saw had 4+ mags on the vest plus a good amount of other stuff so that's why I was curious about weight.

Follow up question to diamondback's; do y'all use whatever is the "best by cost" or is there really so much study on the HP's that you choose based purely off data?

Thanks

Every agency seems to have their own "expert" who hires their cronies to sit around all day and read studies and go to the range. Look at WA State agencies alone. There are like, 4 or 5 different armed WA state agencies and they all use different combinations of guns, calibers, ammo, etc.

Seems like economics and broad spectrum usability are a big factor now. Get a gun that fits just about anyone chambered in something anyone can shoot. Then find the best ammo you can and hope.

No_Regerts · Sep 5, 2016

ma96782 said:
Ding, ding, ding.......WINNER of the chicken dinner.

+++++

OK, math time......PD only gives you a box of duty ammo (50 rounds) after qualification. They instruct you to use the new ammo for, "carry."

So.....3 mags at 15 rounds each = 45
Add one for the chamber that's = 46

So, what about your off duty weapon? Only 4 left......

HA, Ha, ha....I have some "left overs." And, over the years maybe the leftovers got switched up with your regular uniform duty ammo.

OMG....the field day when forensics gets involved. How many rounds does the officer have left? Did we find all of the brass are you sure? Why are there WW marked brass at the scene mixed with Federal and Remington brass? Where are all of the bullets holes? How many are still left in the body? Tough job huh?

Well, mine was too. Now, quit your whining.

Aloha, Mark

Its actually worse than that. 4 magazines at 17 rounds a piece +1, so you get your box plus 19 out of another box. Then, we get our monthly range ammo but the brands and loads are all over the place based on whats cheapest. Speer, Federal, Blazer, 115, 124, 147 gr.