Carried, and glad you did...

[CarlMc]

Go look up Massad Ayoob's 10 Commandments of Concealed Carry. Well worth some study time.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I have only had to draw my weapon in civilian life one time (not counting defenses of property against trespassers) but I have been glad I was carrying on many occasions. I was downtown one night when a guy started threatening people with a machette. I confronted him and kept him occupied until police arrived. I did not have to draw my gun but I was glad I had it with me. We had our house scoped out by a guy responding to a craigslist ad who we later saw on the news for robbing people he met via for sale ads on craigslist. When he was here he noticed I was carrying. I was glad I had it on me then. There have been many times things did not go bad but could have where I did not need my gun but was glad it was there because just a little change of circumstances could have caused me to need it.

Then there was also this time I almost had to fend off an attacking ice maker....

 

[Cougfan2]

Then there was also this time I almost had to fend off an attacking ice maker....

Ah, yes. I remember the ice maker incident. Be afraid. Be very afraid!

 

[Reco]

I first got my permit because it was required for work. I was working armed security at a alarm response company after leave the US Marines. I went to work for a company that had armed officers and did a variety of other more high end security work soon after. While having observed the public in different situations and as being an armed uniform officer and placing some those folks into the custody of Portland Police it became second nature to carry concealed when off duty. Though while not uniformed I've been very fortunate in taking steps to try to avoid situations that would place myself or family in danger, I've never had to confront or defend myself. Unfortunately even though I no longer work in that field; having seen what's out there and reading the news and other things along with having my wife and daughter in-law in close vicinity to reckless gang behavior; I still feel the need to carry. I guess in the end I carry to remind myself that 99% of the people out there are decent and law abiding along with 1% that will end your life or someone else with little thought. I suppose being a sheep dog is better then being a sheep, when the wolves come calling.

Be Safe.

Reco

 

[evltwn]

I couldn't imagine carrying a gun at all times. My car keys and mobile phone are bad enough. I might go the CHL route for the reason above though. Feeling more at ease transporting guns to/from the range.

There are no stories about having a gun on your person and how it really paid off because the real odds of that are about .001%. All the above examples could have been deterred with a Kimber double whammy 90mph pepper spray, or better yet common sense and retreat. Plus the odds of going to jail or being sued if you ever pull the trigger just isn't worth it at all. Post SHTF all those things change of course and CHL or no CHL won't be an issue.

Its such a comfort to see that you have it all figured out. You can speculate and go on and on bloviating about odds and pepper spray. As for me, the XDm goes where the family goes...so carry your cell phone and hope to God someone in your family has enough sense to protect you all.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Its such a comfort to see that you have it all figured out. You can speculate and go on and on bloviating about odds and pepper spray. As for me, the XDm goes where the family goes...so carry your cell phone and hope to God someone in your family has enough sense to protect you all.

Anyone that thinks pepper spray does a darned thing against a determined and armed attacker has very little experience with pepper spray. All it does is make them feel like crap after their adrenaline rush of killing you settles down. Pepper spray is good for calming hysterical people, breaking up crowds, and deterring animals...but it has little effect on attackers in the act of trying to kill you.

Luckily, we all know that people never have to use a gun to defend themselves. People never get attacked and successfully defend themselves with a firearm. It just doesn't happen. Because if it did happen a person would have to admit that there is a chance it could happen to them and then they would have to feel responsible for their own decision to be less prepared than they could...and heaven forbid someone make that decision in a responsible manner (without trying to minimize the risk) and actually accept personal responsibility if things did go wrong.

Minimizing/rationalizing the personal risk is okay when you are deciding to not get that extended warranty on your iPod...but doing it when the a loved ones life could be on the line demands a little more consideration, IMHO.

 

[elsullo]

PP, I must say that you are misinformed about the efficacy of pepper spray in stopping evildoers. There are probably a dozen law officers here who have been sprayed in training who will differ with you! FRESH pepper spray will immediately cause an involuntary closing of the eyes within just a couple of seconds; within a couple of seconds more the victim is solely concentrating on maintaining his breathing. If your assassin cannot reach you within that couple of seconds then he will be debilitated by the spray.

It is important to understand that defense sprays have a shelf life and lose effectivness within a year or two. Only the brands with dated containers are worth buying; an undated container is pure guesswork whether it is effective or not. It is worth estimating that most people who have been sprayed by non-law-enforcement people have been sprayed with stale and inneffective stuff, and so come to believe that it does not work. They will get a surprise when they meet LEO grade fresh pepper spray!

Fun true anecdote from the bad-old-days of the early 1990's Portland bus drivers: In those days the drug gangs raised heck on Tri-met and there was a series of violent crimes on the North Portland buses. Some drivers used defense sprays to save themselves. Some Crip gangster-wannabees decided to reciprocate and got some (stale) pepper spray to hose a driver so they could assault and rob him. All that it did was to make him REALLY ANGRY and he pursued the bangers off the bus and thumped them both quite properly. This inspired a legend in NoPo that bus drivers were scary-tough, and the Crips never tried anything like that again.............................elsullo

Anyone that thinks pepper spray does a darned thing against a determined and armed attacker has very little experience with pepper spray. All it does is make them feel like crap after their adrenaline rush of killing you settles down. Pepper spray is good for calming hysterical people, breaking up crowds, and deterring animals...but it has little effect on attackers in the act of trying to kill you.

Luckily, we all know that people never have to use a gun to defend themselves. People never get attacked and successfully defend themselves with a firearm. It just doesn't happen. Because if it did happen a person would have to admit that there is a chance it could happen to them and then they would have to feel responsible for their own decision to be less prepared than they could...and heaven forbid someone make that decision in a responsible manner (without trying to minimize the risk) and actually accept personal responsibility if things did go wrong.

Minimizing/rationalizing the personal risk is okay when you are deciding to not get that extended warranty on your iPod...but doing it when the a loved ones life could be on the line demands a little more consideration, IMHO.

 

[Generator]

In 3rd grade a friend of mine held a pencil, straight up, on the bus seat under another student. It made me realize that people, who you trust, can be evil. I too am glad to see that no one here has ever had to shoot someone else, but I carry everywhere because we don't actually know everyone in the world. People don't need to look a certain way to be harmful, it can be unexpected, and I'd rather deal with an annoying gun on my hip than deal with not having my wife.
Sorry OP, I'm glad that I can't respond to your actual question.

 

[Burt Gummer]

Not talking about little pepper sprays you buy at the counter at 7-11. These Kimbers are nice YouTube - ‪Kimber Guardian Angel Pepper Blaster II Pepper Spray Gel‬‏ as are canister-types 8oz - 10oz in your car door panel, etc. The Kimber is a nice piece, at fits in a pocket; 90mph wide pattern - 15'. Since the vast majority of defensive shooting scenarios are at 5-10 yards I think 15' with a wide pattern is good. I would love to see someone get past it when the shooter was coordinated. It is powerful enough to not be affected by wind. In most situations it is all that would ever be needed until fast retreat to a gun/cover, etc. The little squirt-squirt 1oz-2oz black/silver sprays you see sold everywhere are absolutely worthless. They are only for the police after they pin you down and want to have some fun with you.

The OP wanted to know if he should carry or not. In order to make that decision he should know that there are viable alternatives to carry.

No meeting with the DA; no getting sued; no worrying about killing someone a block away behind the perp, no jail time. Again, talking about the average Joe in the 'average environment'. If you live in a bad neighborhood in Detroit (the future of all US cities) of course you need to arm up.

I will probably go the CHL route because I transport guns to the range a lot don't want to worry about nitpicky crap. I would carry in environments where the odds of needing a gun would be higher than .001%. Not Fred Meyers, not the movie theater, not the .001% scenarios. Going back to the getting hit by lightning scenario, using that logic I would be irresponsible toward myself and others I care about if I didn't carry around a grounding rod.

 

[levi333]

Like most people here, I have not had to draw or shoot anyone.
But, I liken this question to "Do you have a fire extingisher/detectors in your house? Have you ever needed them?" I'd say the majority of us have probably not.

It's really up to you how much you carry, but with the right gun/rig, you eventually barely even notice.

 

[levi333]

Not talking about little pepper sprays you buy at the counter at 7-11. These Kimbers are nice YouTube - ‪Kimber Guardian Angel Pepper Blaster II Pepper Spray Gel‬‏ as are canister-types 8oz - 10oz in your car door panel, etc. The Kimber is a nice piece, at fits in a pocket; 90mph wide pattern - 15'. I would love to see someone get past it when the shooter was coordinated. It is powerful enough to not be affected by wind. In most situations it is all that would ever be needed until fast retreat to a gun/cover, etc. The little squirt-squirt 1oz-2oz black/silver sprays you see sold everywhere are absolutely worthless. They are only for the police after they pin you down and want to have some fun with you.

The OP wanted to know if he should carry or not. In order to make that decision he should know that there are viable alternatives to carry.

No meeting with the DA; no getting sued; no worrying about killing someone a block away behind the perp, no jail time. Again, talking about the average Joe in the 'average environment'. If you live in a bad neighborhood in Detroit (the future of all US cities) of course you need to arm up.

You can still easily be sued/jailed! Pepper spray is not a free pass, there are always consequences.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

elsullo,

I graduated from a state police academy and I have been pepper sprayed more than once during training and after. I know full well the abilities and limitations of pepper spray. I also know that studies showing the ineffectiveness of pepper spray were often used to justify purchase of tasers. Pepper spray is not as effective as you might like to think. Especially not against full grown men who are either on an adrenaline high or on drugs and intending to do you harm. I have witnessed first hand many, many perps shrug off pepper spray for several minutes. You can see it yourself with a simple video search...or just watch TruTV and watch the many videos where pepper spray fails to halt assailants.

 

[FnfaN]

i have been thinking about it a lot. Beaverton Oregons crime rate is not as bad as say north Portland, but things happen out here. I had a bicyclist, you know one of those here i can do what ever i want guys, pull out in front of me while there was a bike lane right near the sheriff office on murray and allen, so i honked my horn. he came up next to the car, luckily i had my friend with me who is a green beret so i wasn't to worried we both were ready. I just drove off. Then I drove up to the max tracks, a max train started coming and the gates dropped, he rolled up next to me on the drivers side and started cussing and swearing at me. So I said, I feel threatned and I have no way to escape if you do not back off I will be forced to defend myself, he continued, to berate and yell, all because I honked my horn, i opened my door and reached down to my waist band and he sped off almost being hit by the train.

That next Monday I ordered my birth certificate from california and printed the PDF file to start my CHL application. I hope I never have to use it, ever. I have no problem defending myself or someone around me, I don't want to have to take a life, but I will not be a victim of someones anger, pride, or sense of entitlement. Who knows what that guy may have done if I didn't posture. Now I carry a FN five seven or a FNX 40 cal with jackted HPs.

We pay thousands of dollars a year in different insurances, home, car, life, the best insurance policy I have is my sidearm with one in the chamber.

 

[elsullo]

Thanks for that input, PP! I did not mean to imply that defense spray was infallible. I should have also mentioned that an estimated five-per-cent of humans and a similar percentage of dogs are completely immune to the effects of pepper spray. I have not read any estimates of partial immunity, but it must be real. Myself, I had to use CS spray on a huge pair of Crip Beeches who were trying to stab me and the woman I was protecting, who they had already stabbed once, and it shut them down INSTANTLY---all they could do was flee, and not far. For this reason I only carry defense spray that has both CS and pepper for ingredients---along with a pistol or two. Circumstances will dictate which I reach for first. Being trained and prepared and confident of both alters ATTITUDE. Baddies perceive this well and so many fights can be avoided.

Another fun, true anecdote: twenty years ago I had a huge male Doberman dog. He was secretly a love-hound, but he looked impressively fierce and had a real deep bark that could peel paint when he did not like somebody. In those days I lived out in Felony Flats of Portland, and one dark night some tweaking meth-head tried to steal him! The fool brought a canister of pepper spray assuming that it would subdue the dog enough to drag him away. Poor tweaker! My Dobie was already proven to be utterly immune to pepper! I heard the ruckus and the gate slam with the dog still inside, so I rolled over and went back to sleep. I found the spray canister in the morning, chewed up like a dog toy........................elsullo

elsullo,

I graduated from a state police academy and I have been pepper sprayed more than once during training and after. I know full well the abilities and limitations of pepper spray. I also know that studies showing the ineffectiveness of pepper spray were often used to justify purchase of tasers. Pepper spray is not as effective as you might like to think. Especially not against full grown men who are either on an adrenaline high or on drugs and intending to do you harm. I have witnessed first hand many, many perps shrug off pepper spray for several minutes. You can see it yourself with a simple video search...or just watch TruTV and watch the many videos where pepper spray fails to halt assailants.

 

[ben47]

A teenager tried to run me off of a gravel road a couple of months ago near my house which is about 5 miles from a town. apparently he was mad at how fast I was driving even though i was going 40. It was the closest ive ever been to crashing. About a half mile down the road he was stopped and standing in the middle of the road wanting to fight. luckly for him i just backed up quickley and turned around. But I couldnt help but think what would have happened if I actually crashed and he stopped then. I had my Glock 27 stuffed in the seat beside me but if I were cornered I dont know what I would have done.

 

[absoluterik07]

I can also attest to the ineffectiveness of police mace/pepper spray. All that it did to me was piss me off and burn my eyes and throat mildly. I did not have any problems from being sprayed in the face at about 1 foot away from various types of pepper spray other than feel like I had allergies. Not sure if I'm one of the "immune" as I haven't heard of that before but it sure didn't work on me. Just my personal experiences. YMMV.

 

[elsullo]

Allow me to express my admiration for your good sense and self-restraint! That young fool was likely high as a kite on meth and obviously irrational, and you would have had to kill him to get past him. Situations like that make me glad that I am left-handed.....knowwhatImean? My truck has its own personal well-hidden firearm. I salute your maturity!.......................elsullo

A teenager tried to run me off of a gravel road a couple of months ago near my house which is about 5 miles from a town. apparently he was mad at how fast I was driving even though i was going 40. It was the closest ive ever been to crashing. About a half mile down the road he was stopped and standing in the middle of the road wanting to fight. luckly for him i just backed up quickley and turned around. But I couldnt help but think what would have happened if I actually crashed and he stopped then. I had my Glock 27 stuffed in the seat beside me but if I were cornered I dont know what I would have done.

 

[davef]

This has been very interesting reading for me thus far and I appreciate everyone who has responded thus far. Reading all the replies has got me thinking about some scenarios that a ccw holder might have to face and Im curious what your replies might be. If this is too off topic from my original post just say so and Ill start a new thread in the strategies section. Obviously you can only defend yourself if faced with deadly force but Im wondering how a ccw permit holder might legally diffuse a scenario such as...

Youre leaving the mall, a 7-11 with your slurpee, or a bar at night and you notice 2 men walking toward you. At this point you are sure they are coming for you but you are not sure what they want. 1 of them blocks your car door and the other one is preventing you from making a run for it. Neither one has demonstrated any sort of deadly force or shown any sort of weapon but its obvious they want something.

now this is just a generalization but the point being that my first choice in any situation would be to make a run for it but if that is not an option, what do you do to legally prevent the situation from escalating further before the exhibit of deadly force if evident. More specifically, are you allowed to voice that you are legally armed? are you allowed to draw or put your hand openly on your weapon without brandishing it? How do you make it clear that you will defend yourself legally if need be? Again if this is too of topic let me know but I think it relates to the subject.

 

[samuelm16]

although we were not concealed carrying we had a truck load of guns headed up to estakadur had a tweeker get right on our tailgate so my buddy did a couple brake taps pissed the guy off next thing we know hes next to us running on coming traffic off the road and then wham slams into our front fender and speeds off, we stop and assess the damage while calling the staters sure felt comforting knowing i had some form of protection standing on the side of 224 waiting for a psycho to come back and finnish us off

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

davef,

To answer your question, in that situation I would feel I had just cause to fear for my safety. I would have no issue putting my hand on my weapon as I attempted to verify what was going on and if they were up to no good. If I felt I was in immediate danger I would have no issue with drawing my weapon to end the situation. I would never fire it unless my life was brought into immediate and definite danger. Brandishing would not be a factor in an encounter like this because brandishing in the legal sense requires two things. A prosecutor would have to be able to show you were using your weapon to intimidate AND that the intimidation was not in relationship to an act of self defense. As soon as a threat exists brandishing laws become moot.

You really have to be careful and use good judgment though. I have had two similar things happen to me. One time in Atlanta two guys walked towards us as we were returning to our car after a movie. One of the guys walked in front of me and leaned against my car door as the other walked past me...blocking me from getting into my car. I immediately said "Excuse me, that is my car." At that time his friend said "Wrong car dumbxxx." and the guy immediately jumped up, apologized and moved to the car behind me which was a very similar model. I would have felt a fool if I had escelated that situation. Another time happened here in PDX. We were leaving a strip club downtown and some punk and his friend were yelling slurs at people leaving the club. My friends and I ignored him and walked to our car. As we were walking he and his friend followed us and he continued to talk his crap. I ignored him all the way to the car but as I went to unlock the door a friend motioned to me to look behind me and I could see the guy walking closer to me. I immediately turned and got in his face and said something to the affect of "Do you have something you want to say to me!?!?" Seeing as I was a good head taller and about at least 75lbs heavier he decided to back off quickly...so a weapon was not needed then either.