Can you handle a shootout? Video showing reg students in chl senario.

[Don't Sue People Panda]

It is easy to sit at your keyboard and decide how brave you are, and how you will react to the adrenaline orgasm your body dumps when the real world hits your training. Having it happen, and experiencing the tunnel vision, the freaking out of control muscle groups that used to be your body, and the totality of what is happening is another ball of wax entirely. No matter who you are, and how you train, when it really happens, and you manage to survive it, you will realize that you had no idea what it would be like. Your only hope lies in realistic, repetitive training, and the luck of the draw.

+1

 

[Kevatc]

Despite the negative slant the videos had I still found them valuable. Reminds me that in a shooting there will be chaos most likely, people will be running and diving like farts in a skillet, you could easily get hung up in your clothing while trying to draw, find cover or concealment pronto, your accuracy will suffer in a high stress dynamic situation. Regular and consistent training is good, getting formal didactic and practical education is really good, avoiding is best but not always possible. I have had one run through with some force on force stuff and I can say that until you've done it you will not know how you are going to react and that it is very likely you could get into a goofy loop and make some really poor decisions. Should training be mandatory? Be an interesting discussion for sure but I would suggest that the more you get the better especially if you can get some FoF training.

 

[chemist]

How many people are actually going to be in scenarios where a fast draw is required. I suspect it is statistically insignificant. In most cases a reasonably cautious person will most likely have the awareness to draw or being a state of readiness.

I thought it was interesting in the videos that most of the people did not appear to shoot with reckless abandon. They tried to stay on target and did better than expected. I suspect ABC was hoping for more innocent casualties.

Security is a mindset and involves multiple layers based on the situational threats. That being said training is good - there is no argument there.

This.

I don't "look" armed, and neither does my bride. What we practice most often is a surprise response, not a cowboy-style duel. If the BG's think they're getting what they want, they're not going to simply open up on us. I don't know about you, but I don't lose sleep over worrying about a hit squad coming for me. If someone's sole intent was to kill me, I'd never see it coming anyway. But if I can load them down first with our wallets, watches, keys, cash, phones,... and then the surprise comes....

 

[Burt Gummer]

This is why what passes for 'news' is totally worthless. The news is nothing more than fearmongering, deceit and propaganda anymore.

I don't carry, but I am very thankful that others do and respect it 100%. In the event that my life is ever on the line in a similar situation I know one thing - there will NEVER be a cop around to help me. Two thumbs up for the carry folks.

 

[Burt Gummer]

<broken link removed>

Right there - I know I did the right thing by finally joining the NRA. Great article.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I love how they outfit the inexperienced shooters with oversized shirts (and even gloves and restrictive headgear) and then the shooter goes straight for them each time while other students get away unharmed. This is just another example of why you do not make yourself an obvious target.

 

[Kevatc]

This.

I don't "look" armed, and neither does my bride. What we practice most often is a surprise response, not a cowboy-style duel. If the BG's think they're getting what they want, they're not going to simply open up on us. I don't know about you, but I don't lose sleep over worrying about a hit squad coming for me. If someone's sole intent was to kill me, I'd never see it coming anyway. But if I can load them down first with our wallets, watches, keys, cash, phones,... and then the surprise comes....

Maybe this video might make you at least really think over what you posted. YouTube - Armed Homeowner Shoots Robbers During Daytime Invasion (AZ)

 

[madderg]

Always carry in a comfortable and accessible position, go to cover as you draw...it gives you some safety and time to think. Vests and open shirts are the best, and good year round. If your gonna cover your weapon with layers of clothing, don't take it, and just find cover.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Maybe this video might make you at least really think over what you posted. YouTube - Armed Homeowner Shoots Robbers During Daytime Invasion (AZ)

Can you say drug runners. The homeowner is obviously a drug distributor.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Hitting the deck would be the correct thing to do.

Exactly! I've handled firearms all my life and I was on a paintball team that eventually went pro. For 15 years we played and practiced both indoors and outdoors and in all kinds of settings and with various scenarios. I can tell you that without any thought I'd immediately be on the floor behind the desk, but also moving laterally as I drew my weapon. Training would also dictate that I would pop up in an unexpected location, fire a burst of 3 quick shots, drop and move to another position. Repeat as necessary. The "pro" bad guy has the element of surprise and that's his only advantage. After that he is stationary and in the open. You cannot be stationary and survive a firefight.

 

[Kevatc]

Can you say drug runners. The homeowner is obviously a drug distributor.

You might be correct but nowhere in the story does it say this. It could've also been a home invasion robbery. At any rate, what I noticed in the video was at least one bad guy had an AR 15 looking rifle. There are some who are advocating that your basic citizen shouldn't have an assault rifle or high capacity mags. Seems to me that having an AR 15 and at least one 30 round mag was the perfect defensive weapon for this particular scenario ... although I have no idea what the homeowner actually fired back with.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

You might be correct but nowhere in the story does it say this. It could've also been a home invasion robbery. At any rate, what I noticed in the video was at least one bad guy had an AR 15 looking rifle. There are some who are advocating that your basic citizen shouldn't have an assault rifle or high capacity mags. Seems to me that having an AR 15 and at least one 30 round mag was the perfect defensive weapon for this particular scenario ... although I have no idea what the homeowner actually fired back with.

Not likely at all. I may not have been the best investigator but I can add this one up pretty easy. Multiple invaders with long rifles in broad daylight, cameras everywhere, homeowner prepared to shoot back on short notice...

 

[Kevatc]

Not likely at all. I may not have been the best investigator but I can add this one up pretty easy. Multiple invaders with long rifles in broad daylight, cameras everywhere, homeowner prepared to shoot back on short notice...

Not saying you're wrong but neither am I. Did the BG's know there were cameras everywhere? If the homeowner was a drug dealer he would have to know that if he were ever caught any video he had could be used against him. Homeowner prepared to shoot back .... are you seriously going to hang your hat on that? I have 2 handguns and an AR ready to rock 24/7. Am I a drug distributor????? The answer to that would be a definite NO!

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Not saying you're wrong but neither am I. Did the BG's know there were cameras everywhere? If the homeowner was a drug dealer he would have to know that if he were ever caught any video he had could be used against him. Homeowner prepared to shoot back .... are you seriously going to hang your hat on that? I have 2 handguns and an AR ready to rock 24/7. Am I a drug distributor????? The answer to that would be a definite NO!

That same clip was on "Most Shocking" on TruTV. They did add that the homeowner was later charged with criminal activity. They just did not say exactly what.

The fact is four men do not rush your home with rifles for a standard burglary. It just does not happen. Especially not when you are standing in the open garage at the time. An attack like this is motovated either by a personal grudge (not likely) or an organized criminal hit.

 

[Kevatc]

That same clip was on "Most Shocking" on TruTV. They did add that the homeowner was later charged with criminal activity. They just did not say exactly what.

The fact is four men do not rush your home with rifles for a standard burglary. It just does not happen. Especially not when you are standing in the open garage at the time. An attack like this is motovated either by a personal grudge (not likely) or an organized criminal hit.

Never saw the TruTV piece so I can only go with what was posted here.

Wasn't there a home invasion robbery gone bad where an adult male was killed at his home where he and his wife cared for a bunch of disabled kids not oo long ago? My memory says there was security video of a van with a number of men who rushed the house.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Never saw the TruTV piece so I can only go with what was posted here.

Wasn't there a home invasion robbery gone bad where an adult male was killed at his home where he and his wife cared for a bunch of disabled kids not oo long ago? My memory says there was security video of a van with a number of men who rushed the house.

If you are talking about the incident that was on 20/20 a few years back, yes that happened. It turned out the people who ran the group home for severely disabled kids were also one of the biggest cocaine distributors in southern California. The group home was just a front. The van load of guys (it was actually a moving truck I think) were a hit squad sent by unpaid suppliers.

Like I said before, armed hordes invading innocent homes just does not really happen. One of the first things you look for as an investigator when something odd like that happens is "why did it happen." There is almost always a reason outside of normal circumstances.

Such as when the "alert and prepared home owner" in SE PDX held the three home ivaders at gun point on his lawn a few years ago turned out to be in that situation in the first place because the "random burglars" felt he shorted them in a meth deal. He was so eager to talk to the media at first and then ended up getting locked up himself.

 

[Shooter98]

Guys, one of the first things LEO's and military are taught is to never assume you know what's going on or who your attacker and/or victim is. That rule should hold true for civi's as well eh? I too think it's a little quick stereotype to assume this guys a drug dealer. Everyone sees that criminals are getting more desperate and bold especially as times get tougher.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

K

Guys, one of the first things LEO's and military are taught is to never assume you know what's going on or who your attacker and/or victim is. That rule should hold true for civi's as well eh? I too think it's a little quick stereotype to assume this guys a drug dealer. Everyone sees that criminals are getting more desperate and bold especially as times get tougher.

Actually, the first thing they teach us in investigations (both in LE and the military) is that if something doesn't seem.right it probably isn't.

You have to ask what would have been the potential payoff for storming a random home that you know to be occupied? Even if it was a home you knew had cash in it (which most homes do not) you would wait until it was unoccupied. You would jot want to be easily identified by your victim unless you felt your victim could not go to the police.

 

[Shooter98]

K
Actually, the first thing they teach us in investigations (both in LE and the military) is that if something doesn't seem.right it probably isn't.

You have to ask what would have been the potential payoff for storming a random home that you know to be occupied? Even if it was a home you knew had cash in it (which most homes do not) you would wait until it was unoccupied. You would jot want to be easily identified by your victim unless you felt your victim could not go to the police.

Funny, I missed that part in training.
I think it's pretty safe to say that when the perps jump out of a vehicle towards the house with weapons drawn that they had no intentions on letting any victims being able to identify them. Agreed?

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Funny, I missed that part in training.
I think it's pretty safe to say that when the perps jump out of a vehicle towards the house with weapons drawn that they had no intentions on letting any victims being able to identify them. Agreed?

You missed one of the single greatest fundamentals of investigations training??? You think that even if motive does not mesh with the actions that things are probably still just as they appear on the surface? Let me guess...you also think it is always the person you least suspect that committed the crime.