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Can anyone help ID this?

Discussion in 'Handgun Discussion' started by bbowl, Oct 13, 2011.

  1. bbowl

    bbowl Beaverton OR Active Member

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    Markings:
    11 and 11 on top of each other right in front of trigger guard
    An indented square on right side of butt/grip
    A stamping that appears to be a E on top, two ferns? crossed with a S on the left and an R on the right. (under close inspection the R on right appears to be a Z)
    A sideways 8 possibly an infinity symbol on the left side of the barrel

    Barrel is .41 in diameter
     
  2. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Ardenwald, OR Well-Known Member

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    Called a "Boot gun" back in the day, this one appears to be Belgian made.
     
  3. bruzer

    bruzer Grants Pass, OR Well-Known Member

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    Is this your new carry weapon? Very cool.
    Mike
     
    mjbskwim and (deleted member) like this.
  4. bbowl

    bbowl Beaverton OR Active Member

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    Yeh its the newest thing in tactical carry. Just need to get my crimson trace installed
     
  5. bbowl

    bbowl Beaverton OR Active Member

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    Someone elses in person feedback is that it is deff not belgian made and its not a boot gun. Its considered a muff gun. So he says...

    I have added a new picture showing the mark in detail.
     
  6. cetme

    cetme oregon city Member

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    connetticut valley arms used to sell something like it in the 70s,i think it had a brass barrel and frame..
     
  7. Deavis

    Deavis Mid Willamette Valley Active Member

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    Where are the rails?
     
  8. tac

    tac UK, Oregon and Ontario. Well-Known Member

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    It is called a muff pistol, and was commonly carried by 'ladies of quality' whilst riding on the mail/stagecoaches of the day. This one is not Belgian-made, as it has none of the proof marks associated with Belgian manufacture since the late 1600's. It is, however, a very cheaply-made item, and appears to have a simulated English proof-mark with an E instead of a crown. The other numbers noted are assembly numbers, and identify this gun when it was a box of bits awaiting assembly into a completed gun. The square and infinity symbols are not known to me.

    I've sent a copy of the proof marks to the Proofmaster at the Birmingham Proof House, asking for his advice.

    Watch this space.

    tac in yUK
     
  9. bbowl

    bbowl Beaverton OR Active Member

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    Thank you very much tac
     
  10. tac

    tac UK, Oregon and Ontario. Well-Known Member

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    Mr bbowl - I've had a response from Sam in the Birmingham Proof House, one that I'm not that amazed to read. It is categorically NOT an English proof mark of any kind - if it were so, it would have had a crown where the 'E' is located. It is quite nicely-made, though although very plain, and might be Belgian, although agian, it lacks any of the required marks for a gun made there, too. It is more usual to see guns of this type with a turn-off barrel - the barrel has a lug-like protruberance underneath at the breech end, and a C-shaped 'key' engages in it and is used to unscrew the barrel. The chamber thus revealed can be filled with powder, a ball placed on the cup-like depression, and the barrel screwed back on.

    Sadly, this doesn't help you much, but whiles away a couple of minutes for ya!

    Verdict?

    Who knows?

    Belgian for the export trade, even Spanish ditto - the 'E' might just be for Eibar, centre of the Basque region gun-making trades, then and now.

    Sorry I can't help more.

    tac
     
  11. bbowl

    bbowl Beaverton OR Active Member

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    Thanks for the effort. FYI this barrel does not unscrew it is all one piece with the frame
     
  12. tac

    tac UK, Oregon and Ontario. Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I know, that's why I wrote 'it is more usual to see guns of this type with a turn-off barrel'. Whinemeal, don't despair - it's a cute little thing to have. are you going to try and shoot it?

    Best

    tac
     
  13. bbowl

    bbowl Beaverton OR Active Member

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    If I knew where to get a new nipple I would. I am more interested in just selling it though. Without knowing what it is its hard to find the nipple. May be just as hard once I do know what it is though!
     
  14. tac

    tac UK, Oregon and Ontario. Well-Known Member

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    Well, it is without doubt going to be a metric nipple, whatever the thread might be. I assume that the gun IS unloaded? You HAVE checked, haven't you? If so, I recommend a good overnight soak in Kroil to loosen it up and then carefully remove it. Dixie Gun Works have an amazing selection of vintage nipples on offer, and you might just get lucky with something that is standard metric thread for one of the modern-day replicas.

    Let's know how you get on.

    tac, wishing he was on Cannon Beach
     
  15. bbowl

    bbowl Beaverton OR Active Member

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    I wouldn't have any idea what to order. Yes it is unloaded I double checked
     
  16. Simonpie

    Simonpie Portland Active Member

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    I just had to drop in some photos of my Allen and Thurber with the screw off barrel. Your's looks significantly different in the lack of barrel removal and the 1 piece grip. While often called a boot pistol, I can't imagine carrying it like that. The hammer has 2 positions, sitting on the cap and full cock. Either way you lose your ankle.

    If you ever open it up I'd love a photo of the mainspring. Mine is missing and I'm having trouble visualizing what to make.

    Even back in the early / mid 1800's there were pretty good standards for threads. If you get the nipple out, it shouldn't be hard to match it to something modern/replica. Absolute worst case would be a trip to a small lathe.

    Good luck.

    fullfar.jpg

    unscrewed.jpg
     
  17. bbowl

    bbowl Beaverton OR Active Member

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    The nipple screws out easily. Any way you could send a link to what might fit? Mine has 3 hammer positions. Sitting on the nipple, 1/2 cock and full.
    Here is a pic of mine with handle out showing mainspring. Also a pic of the nipple
     
  18. bbowl

    bbowl Beaverton OR Active Member

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    IMG_0885.jpg
    IMG_0883.jpg
     
  19. Simonpie

    Simonpie Portland Active Member

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    Thanks for the photos.

    Here's a link to a nipple. Dixie Gun Works muzzleloading, blackpowder and rare antique gun supplies.

    If you roll back to Dixie's main page and search for "nipple" you'll get pages of choices. Metric 6 x 1 and 6 x .75 seem common. It should be easy to find a 6 x 1 bolt at a hardware store for a fit check. 6 x .75 is a little tougher. #11 caps are pretty common for this type of thing and can be had at most sporting goods gun stores. Nipples for "Musket caps" are pretty big and might not fit your hammer.
     
  20. bbowl

    bbowl Beaverton OR Active Member

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    Ok thanks that gives me a good idea of what I need. I'll find somewhere that doesn't charge 10x true shipping cost though, can't stand that. It's a tiny tiny part, send it USPS first class for under a $1...