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Curious if I can name my company as a trustee or does it have to be pre specified individuals. Company gives a lot more flexibility it seems to me for the future (if a company can be a trustee). Thanks for any help!
 
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I'm no hell spawn in a suit, but as far as I'm aware, no. An LLC can be formed and ownership of the LLC can be assigned to the trust to provide liability protections that a trust alone does not provide (isn't all that uncommon) but as for the trust itself, generally speaking, only individuals can be named trustees (solely or jointly).
 
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Just contacted silencer shop and they said an llc can purchase the suppressor. So it seems to me if the llc owns the suppressor you could add members to the llc in the future.

I don't understand yet though if the future llc members would have to go through the whole fingerprint process and background check etc.

It seems to me there is no need for a gun trust if the llc is the owner.

Please let me know if anyone has any experience or thoughts on this. Thanks!
 
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It really depends on what pros and cons you value most. Trusts do have some advantages that LLC's do not.

IE:
-no federal or state tax or reporting requirements with a trust
-no annual fees
-with a trust it's easy, quick, and inexpensive to change who can use or have access to the firearms/silencer
-an LLC is public and does not have the same privacy as a trust
-if the LLC is administratively dissolved, the items become illegal and fixing the LLC does not make them legal again under the NFA
-a trust deals with incapacity and death for succession planning that an LLC does not
-a trust can be changed quickly to fix problem with prohibited persons
-it's easy to modify if you move or change states, LLC's often require to be registered in each state and additional yearly fees apply

An existing business/LLC may seem convenient, however... you have to remember too that using a business/LLC to purchase NFA firearms can cause your business and livelihood to be at risk if someone uses the firearms incorrectly or allows others to have possession or use them.

Just points to ponder.
 
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-no federal or state tax or reporting requirements with a trust
-no annual fees
Don't really care about that because already doing that anyway.

-with a trust it's easy, quick, and inexpensive to change who can use or have access to the firearms/silencer
Seems like it would be easier with llc. A stroke of the pen is all that's needed to add a member of the llc.
-an LLC is public and does not have the same privacy as a trust
I don't think that's correct. It's not public. For example you can have an attorney as the only name on the llc (the agent, which is the only name required for llc) that anyone can see. Members, etc cannot be seen unless they are the one listed as the agent (place of contact).
-if the LLC is administratively dissolved, the items become illegal and fixing the LLC does not make them legal again under the NFA
-a trust deals with incapacity and death for succession planning that an LLC does not
You can easily have the same or similar succession plan for an llc.
-a trust can be changed quickly to fix problem with prohibited persons
Stroke of the pen.
-it's easy to modify if you move or change states, LLC's often require to be registered in each state and additional yearly fees apply
That may be true about registering but I don't think nfa registration would be any different if an individual or llc. In fact it's possible the llc could stay in state as primary location and simply register in the other state which may mean no need for nfa transfer (I don't know about the nfa part).
An existing business/LLC may seem convenient, however... you have to remember too that using a business/LLC to purchase NFA firearms can cause your business and livelihood to be at risk if someone uses the firearms incorrectly or allows others to have possession or use them.
It's the opposite actually. The primary reason to have an llc or corp is for liability protection. People can sue and get at the corps/llcs assets but not yours.
Just points to ponder.
Thanks and much appreciated. Still learning !
 
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Seems like it would be easier with llc. A stroke of the pen is all that's needed to add a member of the llc.
Well... changing officers or organizational structure of an llc requires submitting written notice of withdrawl, which does take a little time. A trust, all it takes is a phone call to your attorney and can be done on the spot the same day, legally binding and in force immediately. "Ease" I guess is relative.

I don't think that's correct. It's not public. For example you can have an attorney as the only name on the llc (the agent, which is the only name required for llc) that anyone can see. Members, etc cannot be seen unless they are the one listed as the agent (place of contact).
As you said.. it IS a public entity by nature... although... there are methods for concealing the officers/owners personal identity. That also comes at a cost though. You gotta pay to play if you want to have an attorney used as an agent for your LLC.

By nature, a trust is "more" private, but there are ways around most anything... trust or LLC.

You can easily have the same or similar succession plan for an llc.
Agreed. Although, not as protected to challenge or, "by default". More language in your articles usually means more cost to prepare them where a trust kind of comes "standard" with those provisions. But yeah... it's doable.

That may be true about registering but I don't think nfa registration would be any different if an individual or llc. In fact it's possible the llc could stay in state as primary location and simply register in the other state which may mean no need for nfa transfer (I don't know about the nfa part).
That part I meant that there are additional fees, filing and annual reporting costs associated with LLC registration in multiple states. Trusts do not. Nothing to do with the NFA aspect though, which of course, would have to be done too if the item was physically moved to another state... regardless of what state the LLC is registred in.
It's the opposite actually. The primary reason to have an llc or corp is for liability protection. People can sue and get at the corps/llcs assets but not yours.
Thats how it's "not" the opposite. What I said was that your LLC can be at risk, not your personally. If your LLC is a business and you draw your livelihood from it, suit and disolution of the LLC could happen if the item was misused. Anyone else drawing their livelihood from that LLC would also be impacted.

If your LLC is not used in that way, it's less of a point to ponder, but "may" be for someone else wanting to use their existing LLC that IS their livelihood, right. ;)

Under your trust, only the assets of the trust would be at risk... not your business that puts food on your table and clothes on your kids backs. That's typically why people set up seperate gun trusts. If the only trust asset is the firearm itself, that's that only asset at risk... the firearm itself.

Just me, personally, I see the greatest disadvantage in the annual filings, fees, and operational requirements as the biggest con. Once it's in place, it MUST be maintained in perpetuity or any NFA items assigned to the LLC will become illegal if the LLC is ever dissolved or does a classification change... for any reason.

Like I said though, just general points to ponder. Some may be more applicable or of more value.. or not... to different people.
 
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Well... changing officers or organizational structure of an llc requires submitting written notice of withdrawl, which does take a little time. A trust, all it takes is a phone call to your attorney and can be done on the spot the same day. "Ease" I guess is relative.
Actually no, I can add or delete members with a stroke of the pen. No need for attorneys or anything else and definitely no need for withdrawal.
As you said.. it IS a public entity by nature... although... there are methods for concealing the officers/owners personal identity. That also comes at a cost though. You gotta pay to play if you want to have an attorney used as an agent for your LLC.
It's not a public entity. Not at all.

You can have anyone as the registered agent, for example your uncle Bob. Registered agent is only a place of contact where official mail is sent. That is the name that is visible as it is registered with the state under the business name.
That part I meant that there are additional fees, filing and annual reporting costs associated with LLC registration in multiple states. Trusts do not. Nothing to do with the NFA aspect though, which of course, would have to be done too if the item was physically moved to another state... regardless of what state the LLC is registred in.
Correct. You can get a registered agent in another state for around $30/year.
Thats how it's "not" the opposite. What I said was that your LLC can be at risk, not your personally. If your LLC is a business and you draw your livelihood from it, suit and disolution of the LLC could happen if the item was misused. Anyone else drawing their livelihood from that LLC would also be impacted.
Under your trust, only the assets of the trust would be at risk...
Same with llc. Llc does not mean it has to have lots of assets. It could have only 1 firearm Fe (just as an extreme example).
at's that only asset at risk... the firearm itself.

Just me, personally, I see the greatest disadvantage in the annual filings, fees, and operational requirements as the biggest con. Once it's in place, it MUST be maintained in perpetuity or any NFA items assigned to the LLC will become illegal if the LLC is ever dissolved or does a classification change... for any reason.
I think it may be helpful to study what those annual filings, operational expenses etc are. I think you will be very, very, surprised. I think perhaps you are thinking of a corporation?

One example is let's say a person owns a rental house and they want the house under the umbrella of an llc for asset protection. They register their name with the state, form their llc, and do their taxes as they normally would, no different. It's much different than a corporation. The rental house is handled under a schedule E whether they do it as an individual or an llc. You must seperate personal expenses etc from the llc expenses etc but other than that it's very straight forward.
Like I said though, just general points to ponder. Some may be more applicable or of more value.. or not... to different people.
Agree! One issue I'm thinking about is what if we move out of state while waiting for the nfa item (may be highly likely for us). That poses big pains in the butt as an individual but llc perhaps it could be a non issue as long as uncle Bob or a registered agent service is there as the registered agent. Not sure how you let atf know it's no longer in state. Probably send them a notice. Don't know on that. Need to research it more but looks promising.
 
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Actually no, I can add or delete members with a stroke of the pen. No need for attorneys or anything else and definitely no need for withdrawal
Oregon: "You amend your articles of organization by submitting the completed Oregon Articles of Amendment/Dissolution – Limited Liability Company form to the Oregon Secretary of State Corporation Division by mail, in person or courier service or by fax."

You can change it with a stroke of a pen, but it is not legally binding until your articles of amendment/withdrawal form is filed. "Withdrawal" is when the LLC officers remove another member from the LLC orginizational structure. Not, you withdrawing from the LLC.

You can chose to do it yourself, yes. It's generally preferable to consult your attorney when making organizational changes though. There is a difference when a person is using an LLC for liability purposes alone and there is not other enterprise associated with that LLC.

Realize that I am speaking in terms of a typical LLC that typically extends beyond.. say... a husband and wife with no business activity associated with it.

Either way. amended articles have to be filed with the OSS.

.It's not a public entity. Not at all.

You can have anyone as the registered agent, for example your uncle Bob. Registered agent is only a place of contact where official mail is sent. That is the name that is visible as it is registered with the state under the business name.
Umm... as you said again, and I agreed with you last time... even if your uncle Bob is the agent... THAT is public record.

With a trust, the name of the trust (whatever you choose to call it) is the entity. Not a person.

In that respect, a trust is "more" private than an LLC since a specific persons information is not as readily accessible... even though there are methods to identify the LLC officers or name of the trustee of a trust, anyway.

Correct. You can get a registered agent in another state for around $30/year.
Agreed. And annual filing with each state, which may or may not cost you anything. Again... a personal LLC for liability limitation only vs. an LLC actually taking in income will differ in the amount of filing, complexity and costs. However.... $30 per state every year, in perpetuity, is still $30 per state every year more than a trust.

Same with llc. Llc does not mean it has to have lots of assets. It could have only 1 firearm Fe.
Very true! The question begs then... what is the advantage of an LLC and annual fees over a trust for 1 firearm, right?

I think it may be helpful to study what those annual filings, operational expenses etc are. I think you will be very, very, surprised. I think perhaps you are thinking of a corporation?
I own and have operated an LLC for decades, I was CEO of a C Corp for over 30 years, helped to establish a family trust, of which I am now the succesor trustee and have 2 trusts for personal use. I am VERY familiar with the laws, filing requirements and fees of each. No suprises whatsoever. ;)

I never said an LLC was always prohibitively expensive. I said it has annual repeating fees and trusts do not. I said if an LLC is dissolved... say... you no longer want to pay annual fees and such... your NFA items become illegal. Trusts may have an advantage in that department. That's all.
One example is let's say a person owns a rental house and they want the house under the umbrella of an llc for asset protection. They register their name with the state, form their llc, and do their taxes as they normally would, no different. It's much different than a corporation. The rental house is handled under a schedule E whether they do it as an individual or an llc. You must seperate personal expenses etc from the llc expenses etc but other than that it's very straight forward.
Swtiching gears. If your LLC NFA item is used in the commission of a crime, and suit is brought against the LLC, your rental home is at risk of loss. YOUR personal assests held outside of the LLC are protected, but your LLC is liable... as I mentioned earlier.

Just things to consider in general terms since I have no way of knowing how you, personally, operate your LLC, what it contains or if it is an active income generating entity or not, right?

If it's only asset is one silencer, you're happy paying annual fees and doing filings as may be necessary for your LLC, have established it to include provisions for death, incapacitation and/or succession (along with other articles to mimic a trust)... I say, more power to you!đź‘Ť
Agree! One issue I'm thinking about is what if we move out of state while waiting for the nfa item (may be highly likely for us). That poses big pains in the butt as an individual but llc perhaps it could remain in the state as long as uncle Bob or a registered agent service is there as the registered agent. Not sure how you let atf know it's no longer in state. Probably send them a notice. Don't know on that. Need to research h more but looks promising.
You could! Sure! However... the item would likely have to remain in the state and in possession of the primary agent until the tax stamp comes through, your LLC is filed and approved in your new state of residence and you file for approval to relocate your NFA to your new state.

I'm assuming just from what I understand about the process. I've never done it, myself with an LLC owned NFA. YMMV

I'm not trying to harsh on you if you want to have your LLC own it. I'm not saying it's "wrong"... I'm just trying to point out some points to ponder without knowing much of anything at all about your specific LLC situation... and... speaking in general terms that others may or may not find helpful if they are trying to choose between them.

IMHO, creating an LLC or a trust specfically for a single NFA item or 2... I would go with a trust based solely on simplicity, no reoccuring costs and no additonal filing requirements or state specific governance... among others. That's just me.:s0155: ;)
 
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I have been told by the OR Dept of Revenue that LLCs in Oregon have the same quarterly tax reporting responsibilities as an S Corp or a C Corp.

Report withholding, transit tax, et cetera. Even if there are no employees or payroll to report.

Just another PITA to consider dealing with.

$.02
 
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I have been told by the OR Dept of Revenue that LLCs in Oregon have the same quarterly tax reporting responsibilities as an S Corp or a C Corp.

Report withholding, transit tax, et cetera. Even if there are no employees or payroll to report.

Just another PITA to consider dealing with.

$.02
True, but there isn't much involved. The biggest pain really is the annual report ($100 fee) and having to file income tax every year even if there is not income to report. So basic fee's... if you do nothing... is $150/annually. (Annual report and $100 every 2 years to renew your LCC).

In general, simple changes to LLC articles/organization are free to file.
 
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The Articles are public and available for review on the Oregon Sec’y of State website. LLC’s are not private in contrast to trusts. That said if you are already doing business under an LLC and have to meet reporting and revenue requirements anyway, it may not matter. However, if your LLC is buying firearm accessories and that is not related to its normal business practices it may trigger greater scrutiny from the Dept of Revenue or worse the IRS, especially with the 87k agents the new fed bill promised to add.
 
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One other element to consider... some states do have statutes that give LLC's a limited lifetime (typically 30yrs) or mandatory provisions that an LLC dissolves if one of the primary officers leaves (or passes away). At any rate, they are not a perpetual entity, like a trust.

Just something more to consider.
 

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