Other State California attempting to pass further restrictions of firearm use by banning lead ammo at ranges.

[papersoldier]

One of many reasons to oppose this type of bill is because it would eliminate the option of handloading for range use.

Is it not possible to handload lead-free projectiles? Or are you refering to cast bullets that one makes themselves?

 

[Goosebrown]

Besides an increase in cost (initially) for "green" bullets I have a hard time seeing why this is a bad idea. We've long known that lead has some pretty undesirable effects on the environment and health and since there is a way now to produce projectiles with pretty much identical performance without a lead core why not embrace the change?

The ballistics are not anywhere near the same. Not even close.

 

[Goosebrown]

Is it not possible to handload lead-free projectiles? Or are you refering to cast bullets that one makes themselves?

The California laws requires "certified ammunition" form a manufacturer. No handliads. Yes you can reload non lead projectiles. They use are not ballisticky sound due to lower density. They are only 70% as accurate. Ok for some hunting but not target.

 

[arakboss]

Is it not possible to handload lead-free projectiles? Or are you refering to cast bullets that one makes themselves?

The bill requires the ammunition to be certified by state agency. No handloader is going to be able to get that done.

This bill is not about helping out the environment. It's about cutting off the supply of ammo. Many ammo manufactures will not bother trying to get their ammo certified for California compliance. They pulled this same bubblegum with handguns.

And good luck melting copper in your Lee pot to make green rounds.

 

[papersoldier]

The California laws requires "certified ammunition" form a manufacturer. No handliads. Yes you can reload non lead projectiles. They use are not ballisticky sound due to lower density. They are only 70% as accurate. Ok for some hunting but not target.

I didn't know that part. I'll agree that requiring certified ammunition is pretty stupid.

As for the 70% accuracy, this has not been my experience when shooting monolithic solid copper rounds. Are you saying that all non-lead bullets will perform more poorly than lead?

EDIT: Concerning my second point, after reading your post again I think you may be talking about casting non-lead bullets, which I have no experience with. If that is the case my comment may not apply as I was talking about manufactured rounds.

 

[arakboss]

What about the many shooters who stockpiled tens of thousands of rounds of ammo and lead projectiles. I didn't see a grandfather clause in the bill. Asking for a friend

 

[MannyGlocks]

Just drink the kool-aid say some...

 

[Goosebrown]

I didn't know that part. I'll agree that requiring certified ammunition is pretty stupid.

As for the 70% accuracy, this has not been my experience when shooting monolithic solid copper rounds. Are you saying that all non-lead bullets will perform more poorly than lead?

EDIT: Concerning my second point, after reading your post again I think you may be talking about casting non-lead bullets, which I have no experience with. If that is the case my comment may not apply as I was talking about manufactured rounds.

No. Monolithic copper will not shoot as well, has a lower ballistic coefficient in every case to lead with copper jackets. I have loaded about different 30 copper bullets in various calibers and none shoot as well as lead. My notes are buried but I spent a few weeks with each changing loads and seating depths. Copper being lighter has to be longer to get the same weight which adds instability. Your other choice is to go lighter with the same length bullets which isn't as good either. I could never get groups in any caliber under .3" where I was in the .1"s consistently in lead

You can go survey benchrest shooters and see how many use copper if you like but they just don't work right.

For hunting you also need to move them a lot faster for them to expand than lead. For my 8x57 i could not get them moving fast enough safely to expand per manufacturer recommendations. Not so with lead.

 

[Aero Denezol]

The utter stupidity of ideas coming out of California these days is breathtaking. California is a complete failure. Not even liberals want to move there anymore.They should break it up into 2-3 states and start over.

 

[ma96782]

The utter stupidity of ideas coming out of California these days is breathtaking. California is a complete failure. Not even liberals want to move there anymore.They should break it up into 2-3 states and start over.

NO, No, no......

Because each new state will be able to have two new Senators. It's not called the "LEFT COAST" for nothing. And, YES. IMHO.....WA State has also gone down that road to ruin. The LEFT COAST thinking is very strong in Seattle and Olympia. Not to mention, the infection that Vancouver, WA got from Portland, OR.

Aloha, Mark

 

[titsonritz]

Just drink the kool-aid say some...

The Guyana grape Kool-Aid.

 

[Enginerd]

I think one of the main concerns when it comes to gun ranges specifically (besides vaporized lead in the air) is lead contamination of ground water (PDF WARNING - EPA documentation on lead concerns for shooting ranges. Chapter 1, section I2 deals with this topic) . I don't know if contaminated water should be considered environmentally inconsequential when the only safe blood-lead level in animals and people is zero.

But those ranges are already responsible for their environmental impacts (See 1.2).

The fact of the matter is, the solution to pollution is dilution. If a range follows these BMPs, which I think we all agree they should do then the relative risk of lead exposure to people in a well managed facility is low. As is EXPLICITLY stated in bold on page I-4.

In my opinion:
This is less about public safety or environmental health, rather just another avenue for attack on firearm access. The democratic strategy is to make everything about gun ownership difficult so that future generations are less likely to engage in gun ownership. Democrats are more focused on reducing % households with guns than deaths from 'salt rifles and this bill is just further evidence.

 

[CamoDeafie]

(Image stating "Is there anything that isn't banned in California?")

View attachment 664080

Using the sidewalks as public restrooms

 

[Unicykle]

It must be scary on the left side cause everthing they do is safety safety safety but yet they are soft on crime, seems to me locking up the criminals would make you safer but what do i know.

 

[awshoot]

No. Monolithic copper will not shoot as well, has a lower ballistic coefficient in every case to lead with copper jackets. ...

Is it a BC or sectional density issue? I'm no physicist so my thinking could be way off -- snip, yep, did a search, way off. ;-)

BC includes in the calculation the SD of a bullet, so density will definitely affect BC by mathematical definition: Ballistic Coefficient SD is important for penetration as well, so a denser bullet is better at hunting, meaning fewer wounded but not dead critters.

I did try to work up a load with some Barnes copper bullets for my hunting rifle and I could never get them as accurate as the load I like using Hornaday SSTs. My best group size was at least 50% larger with the Barnes and only with the lightest powder loads -- so lower velocity, lower SD, lower penetration and worse accuracy.

 

[awshoot]

NO, No, no......

Because each new state will be able to have two new Senators. It's not called the "LEFT COAST" for nothing. And, YES. IMHO.....WA State has also gone down that road to ruin. The LEFT COAST thinking is very strong in Seattle and Olympia. Not to mention, the infection that Vancouver, WA got from Portland, OR.

Aloha, Mark

Maybe make it two states and it would be a wash -- see figure 2: California's Political Geography 2020 - Public Policy Institute of California

 

[CamoDeafie]

Maybe make it two states and it would be a wash -- see figure 2: California's Political Geography 2020 - Public Policy Institute of California

The recent "movement" to split California went so far as to redraw the lines so that each new State would have at least 1 large urban center/city dominating them... as in add 4 new D Senators simply because of the large cities in each new State


Edit 2.
North California gets Sacremento and San Franciso,
(West) California gets Los Angeles and Hollywood, South California gets San Diego, Palm Springs/Indio, Fresno, and Bakersfield..

Of course, California SC quashed and permanently pulled it from all future ballots

 

[awshoot]

The recent "movement" to split California went so far as to redraw the lines so that each new State would have at least 1 large urban center/city dominating them...

Sneaky dirty bastards.

 

[Camelfilter]

I think one of the main concerns when it comes to gun ranges specifically (besides vaporized lead in the air) is lead contamination of ground water (PDF WARNING - EPA documentation on lead concerns for shooting ranges. Chapter 1, section I2 deals with this topic) . I don't know if contaminated water should be considered environmentally inconsequential when the only safe blood-lead level in animals and people is zero.

Sorry, false.

Ashland gun club has just gone through legal hoops because of the neighbor whom had a mansion built next to the range. Suing for exactly that reason.

The range which has been there 50+ years. That's 50+ years of shotgun pellets, and the testing by the paddock even came back fine. Of any area which one would "feal" would be a risk, it would by a paddock.

Nope. Fine.

We've just had wet lands on the property certified safe. Again, in Ashland. Of all of the complete nutterbar communities in the entire PNW, Ashland is about the most severe granola, free range, anti-vaccine, & warped that there is.

Stream at edge of the property. Perfectly fine. Stream which the wetlands drain into.

Lawsuit tossed.

Think whatever you want, because of what you've "heard", or what your "feelings" are. However please don't recommend regulating anything because of such.

I'll use facts and science, thanks.

"The following article by Damian Mann appeared in the Mail Tribune and the Daily Tidings on March 14, 2017.

A seven-year legal showdown between the Ashland Gun & Archery Club and three of its neighbors, including the owner of Belle Fiore Winery, ended with a whimper and not with a bang.

U.S. District Judge Ann Aiken dismissed the lawsuit March 5 after the city of Ashland spent more than $1 million for legal fees, environmental studies and wetland mitigation efforts, even though no lead pollution was found in wetlands on the property at 555 Emigrant Creek Road."

The proposal for MANDATORY lead free ammunition is simply another work around to discriminate against the free enjoyment of the second amendment. Pure and simple.

If an individual shooting sports enthusiast can't see it is such, then that's pretty sad. BECAUSE non-shooting sports enthusiasts will buy into whatever they are being "sold". Rumor & innuendo.

 

[User 1234]

As soon as non-lead ammunition becomes available and affordable, they'll try to ban that too. "Only Swahili gumdrop guano ammunition certified by the state as being ethically mined and gender neutral may be fired."