California active shooter.....Here we go again...

[slimmer13]

There's already a process. If someone is mentally unfit to own a firearm, they should be adjudicated mentally ill.

It's a difficult thing to get done, as it should be because the deprivation of a constitutional right isn't something that should be at the whim of a 2bit therapist doing a quick eval.

 

[CRBMoA]

"I would reply that there is no constitutional right to own a cat, so the barriers to entry in the cat ownership realm do not apply here at all."
Lol, you're right of course, but that's besides the point I'm trying to make. Just trying to illustrate that even for something as low stakes as acquiring a pet they ask a few basic questions to verify you're not some sort of absolute jabroni."

I realize that you are comparing the relative safeguards against the wrong or unprepared people owning firearms with someone adopting a cat.

MY point is that it is not insignificant that Americans are endowed the RTKBA. The 2A was written to curtail my government, not the other way around!

I do not have a Divine right to own a cat. But I DO have a right to own a gun.

 

[FourTeeFive]

I don't know the cause, I don't know the remedy, but I know society is messed up in a way that it wasn't before. For example; before my dad gave me my first gun he had me do hunters safety, get badges related to shooting in Boy Scouts, and he had talks with me about not just safety but responsibility and when you should or shouldn't have to use a gun. I think he was just making sure I wasn't some kind of reckless idiot who was going to shoot somebody.

You pretty much answered your own question. The majority of kids aren't in the scouts, and don't have parents who take the effort to have those types of conversations. We need more of that and less social media.

 

[Caveman Jim]

I just refer to him as Bruce Bruth...

Fixed it for you.

 

[CRBMoA]

Fixed it for you.

 

[Caveman Jim]

To further stir the bubblegum, and disclaimer: these thoughts don't represent my own, but are meant to incite conversation.

I think his point was that the barrier to owning a non lethal feline shouldn't be higher than the barrier to owning firearms.

Yes, there's other ways to kill, but firearms are damn effective at it.

I don't believe in gun control, but definitely believe in people control. If I had to take a mental evaluation with my cpl every 5 years, I would. I guess the question is why wouldn't you?

I should probably just stick to classifieds.

There is that $64,000 word.
My brainwashed elected official opines about the same as you....
Caveman, I believe in the Second Amendment but I believe.....

 

[Gunner3456]

Here is this guy's MASSIVE stash of weapons, LOL.

Photos show San Jose shooter Samuel Cassidy’s massive stash of weapons

Frightening new photos show San Jose gunman Samuel James Cassidy’s massive stockpile of weapons — including 12 guns, Molotov cocktails and thousands of rounds of ammunition, authorities annou…

nypost.com

 

[wollzy]

I'm curious if either of you guys has actually had an eval done? Not just an hour with a therapist but a formal intake and evaluation?

Well, I have.

My wife is in school to be a clinical psychologist who will primarily be working with felons. As a part of that training and education, I've had every test one could conduct done on me (multiple times, both drunk and sober for my own amusement).

I can tell you that yes, after examining your history and putting you through ~4-8 HOURS of intake questionnaires, exams, and tests...they'll have a good idea of you and your proclivities. Yes, there is a definition for "sane" or at least "unlikely to commit violence."

The problem, IMO, is that this is a profession just like any other. Some people are very good at their job: they remove their own biases and apply the science and they do so well. Others...well, this is Oregon and psych programs tend to be very, very liberal leaning.

We cannot draft policy based on the examples set by the best people.

To answer your question...no I have not experienced such extensive intake. So I'll take your word and your wife's professional experience on the matter.

 

[Knobgoblin]

The thing about the character in that movie is that inside he was always that sociopathic killer, he just allowed it to finally uncork.

Aren't we all?

 

[Knobgoblin]

Here is this guy's MASSIVE stash of weapons, LOL.

Photos show San Jose shooter Samuel Cassidy’s massive stash of weapons

Frightening new photos show San Jose gunman Samuel James Cassidy’s massive stockpile of weapons — including 12 guns, Molotov cocktails and thousands of rounds of ammunition, authorities annou…

nypost.com

Looks like my sock drawer.

Except the big plastic bags of rifle ammo. I'm more of an MTM guy myself.

 

[FourTeeFive]

Oh look, the Feds messed up. Again. Whoops. We must need new laws because the existing ones aren't enforced.

San Jose shooting: DHS never told local authorities about stopping gunman, DA says (usatoday.com)

 

[nwslopoke]

They show what he had, not what he used. Now we are supposed to be afraid of gasoline? I'm sorry, military grade gasoline. Like military style belts. So scary. Unfortunately people remain in the dark because of PC culture. 25 years ago a coworker Pete (his real name) hit a wall at work while backing up the work truck. The foreman immediately relieved him of his "lead driver" position (same lousy pay but now less work) and Pete spun out of control begging to keep the position. I informed the boss, I am taking tomorrow off and give Pete is position back. I took the day off and nothing happened with Pete.

I have no regrets and when a grown man cries, I pay attention. Too many times we are not aware of our workers around us in the mega companies. Maybe people are going thru **** but it seems to them no one cares. Well, no one knows. We can't really send flowers to someone who's had a death in the family because we technically aren't suppose to know.

 

[CLT65]

I don't believe in gun control, but definitely believe in people control. If I had to take a mental evaluation with my cpl every 5 years, I would. I guess the question is why wouldn't you?

Personally I think people control is worse than gun control. I've said for years that gun control is more about people control than guns.

There are people on both sides of the political spectrum who want to force everyone else to be like them. They want to order society to fit their ideals. They want to control other people.

Yes, we all want to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and crazy people. How to effectively accomplish that without infringing on the freedoms of the law abiding?

Personally I could easily pass any evaluation/background check/certification necessary, but in principle I'm absolutely against it, and from a practical perspective I don't see it as effective.

 

[Camelfilter]

This is all a great example of why it's hard to have a conversation on this topic, just imagine how convoluted it must be when its had between liberal politicians... I say all these things because we're at a headway here and I wish we had more of the 2A community offering constructive ideas. We're at a headway here, been approaching it for years, legislature is going to get passed at some point; and we need to make sure that legislature makes sense and is something we can all live with! If the democrats have their way what we're going to end up with is bans aimed at gear, which would seriously suck. We need to meet in the middle and show them the proper way to approach this whole issue isn't to ban gear but increase our ability to keep it out of dangerous hands.

"If you intend to keep dangerous things out of peoples hands.... well good luck with that idea"
I get why you say this, but it's not what I mean. I don't want to keep dangerous things out of peoples hands, as long as they aren't dangerous hands, I want to keep dangerous hands off of specific things. Yeah sure the black market will always be there. But some simple things could be done to make it easier to identify and flag people who aren't fit to own a firearm. Like a day class on safety and ownership, a questions and answer face to face, idk, just something to check that they're not an obviously deranged maniac. If it stops even a few of these mass shootings I think it would be worth it.

"I would reply that there is no constitutional right to own a cat, so the barriers to entry in the cat ownership realm do not apply here at all."
Lol, you're right of course, but that's besides the point I'm trying to make. Just trying to illustrate that even for something as low stakes as acquiring a pet they ask a few basic questions to verify you're not some sort of absolute jabroni. Idk the solution here but the best way for us to avoid the bullbubblegum bans is to meet at the table and propose some alternative ideas. All I'm doing is trying to promote some constructive thought on the subject. If legislature that we can live with isn't proposed then what we're going to end up with is a bans on everything that scares old man Biden's heard of sheeple.

Nope.

Civilian disarmament*. Unconstitutional.

Any time an anti-2A uses any term(s), replace said term(s) with civilian disarmament.

It's honestly that simple. There is no support the 2A "BUT".

One either does, or doesn't.

Now, there are problems with society. Work on fixing said problems, don't blame societal problems on inanimate objects (whatever they may be).

In my opinion.


Civilian disarmament*-credit to author Jerry D Young.

 

[baker3gun]

Documented violent criminals don't seem to be the animal we are discussing here.

This guy is , straight arrow, underachieving, hard working, never missed a day at work.
So one day it's just too much and...View attachment 894006

I suggest that the majority of violent criminals share and exhibit common characteristics and only a small fraction of violent crime is committed by people who spent 50 spotless years and then shot their coworkers.

America is a very large society.

We can't can effectively govern ourselves by basing policy on the margins. We can't have a body of specific law that emerges in reaction to every rare event that occurs in our society.

Thought exercise:
What would happen to America if every Congress for the next 10 years passed no laws of any kind other than clean (no pork) appropriations bills?

The answer is that nothing would happen. America would be fine. Because we already have more laws than we need. We don't need any more.

funny huh?

Edit: fix typo, see bold above. We can't govern ourselves according to the margins.

 

[RVTECH]

I have a rabidly liberal family member who has allowed this send him over the deep end into what he believes is the failure of the republicans to support ANY democratic led gun control efforts that would help to just 'save some lives'.

I had to experience his rant the other day in many long, drawn out texts.

Most of his reactions however are 'emotional' in nature and none of them have any basis in fact, logic or rational.

His information comes from MSM and articles showing graphs and facts of supposed 'gun crime' statistics of which are most likely developed by anti-gun sources. Heck I don't even open and look at them.

 

[baker3gun]

...I get why you say this, but it's not what I mean. I don't want to keep dangerous things out of peoples hands, as long as they aren't dangerous hands, I want to keep dangerous hands off of specific things. Yeah sure the black market will always be there. But some simple things could be done to make it easier to identify and flag people who aren't fit to own a firearm. Like a day class on safety and ownership, a questions and answer face to face, idk, just something to check that they're not an obviously deranged maniac. If it stops even a few of these mass shootings I think it would be worth it.
...
Just trying to illustrate that even for something as low stakes as acquiring a pet they ask a few basic questions to verify you're not some sort of absolute jabroni. Idk the solution here but the best way for us to avoid the bullbubblegum bans is to meet at the table and propose some alternative ideas. All I'm doing is trying to promote some constructive thought on the subject. If legislature that we can live with isn't proposed then what we're going to end up with is a bans on everything that scares old man Biden's heard of sheeple.

IMO, you are correct in identifying the political need for gun owners to unite and stand on ground that is politically viable.
It is a political need: if we don't organize effective support, we will continue to lose this political battle.

Only a small fraction of America's 82 million gun owners use gun discussion forums.
The huge body of people who need to unite or to be united in support of 2A, don't use gun forums.

The people who do use gun forums are apparently those people concerned enough about their right to arms to join discussion forums to talk about it.

Generally, if you go on any gun forum and suggest that gun owners need to meet at the table to compromise and find a path forward, you get shouted down, because you are making that suggestion to the fraction of gun owners who are engaged enough in exercising the right to arms that they know better.

IMO - this is a flaw of gun forums. The broad perspective you will find here is true, accurate, and evidence-based, but the membership tends to smash outsiders in the face with it, instead of inviting them to join it, which is not a good strategy for swelling the ranks.
This is where gun-forums need to improve. We need to inform, and to invite. Not face-smash. Food for thought for members of gun forums...

Let's move on to your perspective, which is wrong.

You need to read world history.
The 5000 year history of government is a history of oppression of human freedom, rights, and equality.
Government has always been an engine of oppression.
Our best ancient societies were all discriminatory and elitist.
Class distinctions always existed and were almost always enforced to the detriment of rights and equality.
Slavery was a constant.
Slavery is bad, but everyone always did it, in all directions, throughout every millenia.

The world's first legislated unconditional equality for all persons came into existence for the first time in the 1960's.
Prior to that, no society ever had a law or even an intent to protect equality for all persons.

If you read at all, you must know that elements of American government are clearly intent on bankrupting this nation and stripping its citizens of the right to arms.
You must know that the bastion of liberty (a free press) has failed it's core mission of unbiased propagation of truth to members of society.

So you can't say silly things like, "Oh, that could never happen in America."
Oppression CAN and ALWAYS HAS and ALWAYS WILL happen in any society, and can definitely happen here.

EDIT - The point I meant to make in the preceding 6 sentences: freedom is new, power always corrupts, no government stays good unless it's citizens keep it good, the beginnings of erosion of lawful protection of freedom and rights ARE ALREADY OCCURRING in America. We are not talking about some hypothetical here, this stuff is already happening, pieces of the puzzle are already in place.

Less than half the world's population today lives in a free society.
Net indicators of societal freedom are actually declining worldwide and have been for 15 years.
https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index/2020 see also https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world
Freedom is on the decline.

This is happening less than 200 years after the political ideas and policies that promote and protect liberty and human rights exploded across the globe for the very first time ever in human history.
Basically, your our generation is participating in the wrecking of the first-ever large-scale political experiment in democratic rule and preservation of liberty.
Edit - change to "our".

The people who attack the citizen right to arms are either uniformed (your comments suggest that you may be a member of this segment),
or they are evil.

The solution to that societal problem is to inform uninformed people, and politically defeat evil people.

The citizen right to arms does not cause any problem in our society.
The right to arms does not cause crime.
Stats - https://www.northwestfirearms.com/t...se-active-shooters.370605/page-5#post-2938336
Crime cannot be prevented by infringing on the rights of law-abiding citizens, nor by eroding the only true foundation of lasting freedom (the citizen right to arms).

The citizen right to arms creates a peaceful deterrent to the ambitions of tyrants. You can't oppress an armed population, so why even try?
If the right to arms doesn't cause any problem, and only serves as a barrier to oppression, why get rid of it?

In this light, your assertion that we as a society need to establish government-enforced prerequisites for exercising the citizen right to arms, is childishly foolish.

If you give this government or any government the power to disarm the people, eventually, the people will be disarmed.

Disarmed populations always eventually become oppressed populations.

The rule of law alone has never and will never preserve liberty or rights or equality anywhere.

The correct mission for any freedom-loving American is to disseminate the truth, which is that the citizen right to arms does not cause any societal problem in America, and that no problem in America can be solved by restricting the right to arms.

If you want to prevent crime and irrational attacks perpetrated by insane people, you don't need to regulate guns, you need to regulate crime and mental illness.

As you must know, the criminal justice system in America is nearly 100% ineffective.
95% of all criminal prosecutions end in plea bargain to lesser crime or reduced sentence.
Recidivism rates exceed 70%.
Prison is a crime school.
Our courts and jails are overwhelmed because we don't have enough courts or jails to handle our large and growing number of criminals. Why not get more courts and jails until crime is effectively discouraged, leading to decreased crime, leading to reduced need for courts and jails?

We don't have enough psychiatric facilities to accommodate even half of our population affected by serious mental illness.
Our current solution for management of mental illness is non-management.
Half or more of our population of people afflicted by serious mental illness live on our streets or rot untreated in prisons until their release date, then they live on the streets.

Steer the focus to fixing those problems; not making concessions or compromise to gun control policy.

Hope this helps.

 

[Dinglenutz]

America's 82 million gun owners

Is that 122 million now?

 

[Dinglenutz]

I want to keep dangerous hands off of specific things.

Keep those hands in prison until they can be trusted.

 

[RVTECH]

I still can't stop thinking that there's something more that could be done, maybe something like having people do a 30 minute chat with someone who simply checks that the buyer isn't some kind of deranged asshat.

No disrespect however this particular part of your post is nearly VERBATIM of part of what my lib family member espouses.

Unfortunately he NEVER can specify exactly how any of it COULD be done - always that it just SHOULD be done....