C&R license

User 1234 · May 23, 2021

There are plenty of pre-86 machine guns which are not curios and not relics.

User 1234 · May 23, 2021

trbrenn said:
Another little known fact. All legal registered transferable machine guns are now C&R and can be transfered directly to a C&R license holder after the tax stamp is approved. In Washington it doesn't apply, but anywhere it is legal to do so it works.

Please provide some citations for the statement that "All legal registered transferable machine guns are now C&R."

trbrenn · May 23, 2021

I may have misheard the quote from John Keene. I'll double check.

trbrenn · May 23, 2021

Ok, i was wrong about the transfer of non-C&R weapons. That little benefit went away May 26, 2020. See what happens when you don't talk to friends for year.

trbrenn · May 23, 2021

Ok, it was true in 2019 because of an interpretation of the law and the uniqueness of the guns due to the registry. The revision of May 26, 2020 changed a lot of stuff. I hadn't checked in with my friend at the ATF since fall 2019. He said a lot of things have changed. C&R's can't transfer just frames or receivers of even C&R listed guns any more. It has to be the entire assembled gun 50 years old or not. So no transferring that 60's era lower to your buddy's C&R. Also the ATF will not add any weapons to the C&R list any more. Only one off determinations on a case by case basis. So even if the ATF approves your KEL-TEK prototype as a C&R gun because only 3 were ever made. The other two are still not C&R qualified.

That 50 year old thing is written in law and can't be changed, but the ATF put on it's reading glasses. For a fifty year old gun to be considered a C&R. You'd have to prove that no modifications were made to the weapon since it's manufacture. So if you put a scope on a mosin it's not a C&R anymore. Same goes for bastardized, sorry sporterized, guns.

ATF has recognized only complete, assembled firearms as curios or relics. ATF's classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics.

Can I still buy non-C&R stuff in other states?
No. A licensed collector has the same status under the Gun Control Act (GCA) as a nonlicensee except for transactions in curio or relic firearms.
[27 CFR 478.93) Last Reviewed May 26, 2020

Wow, 2020 really was a bad year!

Sorry for all the wrong information. Hope this makes amends.

tdawg · May 23, 2021

trbrenn said:
Ok, it was true in 2019 because of an interpretation of the law and the uniqueness of the guns due to the registry. The revision of May 26, 2020 changed a lot of stuff. I hadn't checked in with my friend at the ATF since fall 2019. He said a lot of things have changed. C&R's can't transfer just frames or receivers of even C&R listed guns any more. It has to be the entire assembled gun 50 years old or not. So no transferring that 60's era lower to your buddy's C&R. Also the ATF will not add any weapons to the C&R list any more. Only one off determinations on a case by case basis. So even if the ATF approves your KEL-TEK prototype as a C&R gun because only 3 were ever made. The other two are still not C&R qualified.

That 50 year old thing is written in law and can't be changed, but the ATF put on it's reading glasses. For a fifty year old gun to be considered a C&R. You'd have to prove that no modifications were made to the weapon since it's manufacture. So if you put a scope on a mosin it's not a C&R anymore. Same goes for bastardized, sorry sporterized, guns.

ATF has recognized only complete, assembled firearms as curios or relics. ATF's classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics.

Can I still buy non-C&R stuff in other states?
No. A licensed collector has the same status under the Gun Control Act (GCA) as a nonlicensee except for transactions in curio or relic firearms.
[27 CFR 478.93) Last Reviewed May 26, 2020

Wow, 2020 really was a bad year!

Sorry for all the wrong information. Hope this makes amends.

Please provide a reference for "You'd have to prove that no modifications were made to the weapon since it's manufacture. So if you put a scope on a mosin it's not a C&R anymore." ATF FAQ used to address this stating that minor mods such as scope mounting and stock changes, if the original design were "OK." They have interestingly, scrubbed that from the website, but I remember seeing it even a couple months ago.

ETA: From Page 52, https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/p-5300-11-firearms-curios-or-relics-listpdf/download

"
What modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification?
The definition for curio or relic ("C & R") firearms found in 27 C.F.R. § 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.
It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts,
non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable—for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item."

trbrenn · May 23, 2021

Yes everything you are said was correct in 2007. The revision of May 26, 2020 changed a LOT of stuff. Caught me completely by surprise. Modification are allowed but they have to be in compliance with the military standard form of the weapon. You could add a scope to a mosin but it would have to conform to the standards of the Russian military at the time. I.E. a PU or PE scope on the correct mount to make a period sniper rifle. Not a rear sight replacement or a mount tapped into the receiver ring. The receiver thing really caught me by surprise.

I got the update from a friend at ATF, but also saw it on the ATF website https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-firearms-are-considered-be-curio-and-relic-firearms see below.

What firearms are considered to be curio and relic firearms?

Curio and relic (C&R) firearms are defined as firearms which are of special interest to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.
To be recognized as a curio or relic, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

Firearms manufactured at least 50 years prior the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
Firearms certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
Firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, or bizarre or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

ATF has recognized only complete, assembled firearms as curios or relics. ATF's classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics.
Collectors wishing to obtain a determination whether a particular firearm qualifies for classification as a curio or relic may submit a written request for a determination to ATF's Firearms Technology Branch. ATF's classifications of curios and relics firearms are published in ATF Publication 5300.11.

Last Reviewed May 26, 2020

crstrode · May 23, 2021

Just to be clear, a gun need not be on the list to qualify as a C&R.

Quote ATF:

"Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age."

Curios & Relics | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

A regulation implementing federal firearms laws, 27 CFR § 478.11, defines curio or relic (C&R) firearms as those which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.

www.atf.gov

tdawg · May 23, 2021

trbrenn said:
Yes everything you are said was correct in 2007. The revision of May 26, 2020 changed a LOT of stuff. Caught me completely by surprise. Modification are allowed but they have to be in compliance with the military standard form of the weapon. You could add a scope to a mosin but it would have to conform to the standards of the Russian military at the time. I.E. a PU or PE scope on the correct mount to make a period sniper rifle. Not a rear sight replacement or a mount tapped into the receiver ring. The receiver thing really caught me by surprise.

I got the update from a friend at ATF, but also saw it on the ATF website https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-firearms-are-considered-be-curio-and-relic-firearms see below.

What firearms are considered to be curio and relic firearms?

Curio and relic (C&R) firearms are defined as firearms which are of special interest to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.
To be recognized as a curio or relic, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

Firearms manufactured at least 50 years prior the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

Firearms certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

Firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, or bizarre or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

ATF has recognized only complete, assembled firearms as curios or relics. ATF's classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics.
Collectors wishing to obtain a determination whether a particular firearm qualifies for classification as a curio or relic may submit a written request for a determination to ATF's Firearms Technology Branch. ATF's classifications of curios and relics firearms are published in ATF Publication 5300.11.

Last Reviewed May 26, 2020

Well I know for a fact at some point the ATF removed that guidance from their website and it was after May 2020. I remember viewing the FAQs and that exact question was on there in November 2020.... seems pretty fishy it all of sudden disappeared with no warning or formal publication.

Seems like there are a lot of guns out there that would not qualify, if Sgt. Jim Bob scratches his initials into the stock, well than that's not "original configuration"

If there is a chip out of the wood that is repaired, oh well that's not original.

With this line of reasoning there is virtually no point to the C&R which I suspect they would love to get rid of.

tdawg · May 23, 2021

Also to add, they still have the 2007 manual directly linked in the C&R section, so is there anywhere that says that manual is now voided? I certainly can't find anything of that sort.

trbrenn · May 23, 2021

tdawg said:
Well I know for a fact at some point the ATF removed that guidance from their website and it was after May 2020. I remember viewing the FAQs and that exact question was on there in November 2020.... seems pretty fishy it all of sudden disappeared with no warning or formal publication.

Seems like there are a lot of guns out there that would not qualify, if Sgt. Jim Bob scratches his initials into the stock, well than that's not "original configuration"

If there is a chip out of the wood that is repaired, oh well that's not original.

With this line of reasoning there is virtually no point to the C&R which I suspect they would love to get rid of.

Yes that is true but there is a very clear line between repair and modification. If you replace a broken 1911 extractor with a modern made replacement extractor no modification has been made. If you fix a stock with modern materials but leave it in the same configuration that is a repair.

If you cut 12 inches off the stock and replace the sights with a Lyman peep sight on your number 1 mark 3 Enfield that is a modification. If you bolt a red sight on the barrel of your SKS that is modification.

tdawg · May 23, 2021

trbrenn said:
Yes that is true but there is a very clear line between repair and modification. If you replace a broken 1911 extractor with a modern made replacement extractor no modification has been made. If you fix a stock with modern materials but leave it in the same configuration that is a repair.

If you cut 12 inches off the stock and replace the sights with a Lyman peep sight on your number 1 mark 3 Enfield that is a modification. If you bolt a red sight on the barrel of your SKS that is modification.

Again is there any concrete support for that other than hearsay? Now that they have removed the minor mod guidance an argument could be made that any replacement whatsoever removes its "original configuration" status.

trbrenn · May 23, 2021

tdawg said:
Also to add, they still have the 2007 manual directly linked in the C&R section, so is there anywhere that says that manual is now voided? I certainly can't find anything of that sort.

look for anything with reviewed or revised May 26, 2020 at the bottom. That will mark the current revision.

Remember, the ATF cannot make or change law, it can only change how it interprets the law. That interpretation can carry the force of law. In other words they can say what the law means but judges have to figure out if it is legal under the law. Check out Fuddbusters on you tube. It's great to have a pro gun lawyer try and figure out how that works in the real world.