C&R FFL

[smlemk111]

Can a C&R FFL purchase a firearm in Washington as long as it is C&R eligible with no further background check? Thanks

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[308]

Yes. The normal method is to exchange copies of your C&R and then log the firearm in and/or out of your bound book.

 

[etrain16]

Just to provide a reference to what 308 said - this is from the ATF:

Q: Is there a specific license that permits a collector to acquire firearms in interstate commerce?
Yes. The person may obtain a collector's license; however, this license applies only to transactions in curio or relic firearms. The principal advantage of a collector's license is that a licensed collector can acquire curios or relics in interstate commerce.

 

[Nwcid]

I believe the question has to do with the new WA I-594 law. I believe the answer, if that is the question, no one is 100% sure because of how poorly the law is written.

 

[etrain16]

Does I-594 have anything to say about C&R transactions? Since the C&R is a Federal License, can a state pass a law that would supersede the federal license?

 

[Nwcid]

WA law does not supersede, but states are allowed to make laws more restrictive them Federal laws. Look at all the states that have more restrictive laws.......

 

[smlemk111]

Thanks for the replies I have a C&R FFL and was wondering how it is going to work with Washington's new law.

 

[bnsaibum]

Nwcid seems to have nailed it when saying that no one is 100% sure. RCW 9.41.113(1) seems to make an exemption for C&R licenses under federal law, but later speaks about 'licensed dealers' and 'unlicensed persons'. Under I-594 a C&R does not seem to make one a licensed dealer.

RCW 9.41.010(4) "Dealer" means a person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail who has, or is required to have, a federal firearms license under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a). A person who does not have, and is not required to have, a federal firearms license under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a), is not a dealer if that person makes only occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or sells all or part of his or her personal collection of firearms.

RCW 9.41.010(13) "Licensed dealer" means a person who is federally licensed under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a).

RCW 9.41.010(26)"Unlicensed person" means any person who is not a licensed dealer under this chapter.

RCW 9.41.113
Firearm sales or transfers—Background checks—Requirements—Exceptions.
(1) All firearm sales or transfers, in whole or part in this state including without limitation a sale or transfer where either the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington, shall be subject to background checks unless specifically exempted by state or federal law. The background check requirement applies to all sales or transfers including, but not limited to, sales and transfers through a licensed dealer, at gun shows, online, and between unlicensed persons.
(2) No person shall sell or transfer a firearm unless:
(a) The person is a licensed dealer;
(b) The purchaser or transferee is a licensed dealer; or
(c) The requirements of subsection (3) of this section are met.
(3) Where neither party to a prospective firearms transaction is a licensed dealer, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale or transfer through a licensed dealer as follows:
(a) The seller or transferor shall deliver the firearm to a licensed dealer to process the sale or transfer as if it is selling or transferring the firearm from its inventory to the purchaser or transferee, except that the unlicensed seller or transferor may remove the firearm from the business premises of the licensed dealer while the background check is being conducted. If the seller or transferor removes the firearm from the business premises of the licensed dealer while the background check is being conducted, the purchaser or transferee and the seller or transferor shall return to the business premises of the licensed dealer and the seller or transferor shall again deliver the firearm to the licensed dealer prior to completing the sale or transfer.
(b) Except as provided in (a) of this subsection, the licensed dealer shall comply with all requirements of federal and state law that would apply if the licensed dealer were selling or transferring the firearm from its inventory to the purchaser or transferee, including but not limited to conducting a background check on the prospective purchaser or transferee in accordance with federal and state law requirements and fulfilling all federal and state recordkeeping requirements.
(c) The purchaser or transferee must complete, sign, and submit all federal, state, and local forms necessary to process the required background check to the licensed dealer conducting the background check.
(d) If the results of the background check indicate that the purchaser or transferee is ineligible to possess a firearm, then the licensed dealer shall return the firearm to the seller or transferor.
(e) The licensed dealer may charge a fee that reflects the fair market value of the administrative costs and efforts incurred by the licensed dealer for facilitating the sale or transfer of the firearm.
(4) This section does not apply to:
(a) A transfer between immediate family members, which for this subsection shall be limited to spouses, domestic partners, parents, children, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles, that is a bona fide gift;
(b) The sale or transfer of an antique firearm;
(c) A temporary transfer of possession of a firearm if such transfer is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to the person to whom the firearm is transferred if:
(i) The temporary transfer only lasts as long as immediately necessary to prevent such imminent death or great bodily harm; and
(ii) The person to whom the firearm is transferred is not prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law;
(d) Any law enforcement or corrections agency and, to the extent the person is acting within the course and scope of his or her employment or official duties, any law enforcement or corrections officer, United States marshal, member of the armed forces of the United States or the national guard, or federal official;
(e) A federally licensed gunsmith who receives a firearm solely for the purposes of service or repair, or the return of the firearm to its owner by the federally licensed gunsmith;
(f) The temporary transfer of a firearm (i) between spouses or domestic partners; (ii) if the temporary transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at an established shooting range authorized by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which such range is located; (iii) if the temporary transfer occurs and the transferee's possession of the firearm is exclusively at a lawful organized competition involving the use of a firearm, or while participating in or practicing for a performance by an organized group that uses firearms as a part of the performance; (iv) to a person who is under eighteen years of age for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes while under the direct supervision and control of a responsible adult who is not prohibited from possessing firearms; or (v) while hunting if the hunting is legal in all places where the person to whom the firearm is transferred possesses the firearm and the person to whom the firearm is transferred has completed all training and holds all licenses or permits required for such hunting, provided that any temporary transfer allowed by this subsection is permitted only if the person to whom the firearm is transferred is not prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law; or
(g) A person who (i) acquired a firearm other than a pistol by operation of law upon the death of the former owner of the firearm or (ii) acquired a pistol by operation of law upon the death of the former owner of the pistol within the preceding sixty days. At the end of the sixty-day period, the person must either have lawfully transferred the pistol or must have contacted the department of licensing to notify the department that he or she has possession of the pistol and intends to retain possession of the pistol, in compliance with all federal and state laws.

18 U.S. Code § 923 - Licensing
(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. The application shall be in such form and contain only that information necessary to determine eligibility for licensing as the Attorney General shall by regulation prescribe and shall include a photograph and fingerprints of the applicant. Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows:
(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer—
(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year;
(B) of firearms other than destructive devices, a fee of $50 per year; or
(C) of ammunition for firearms, other than ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $10 per year.
(2) If the applicant is an importer—
(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year; or
(B) of firearms other than destructive devices or ammunition for firearms other than destructive devices, or ammunition other than armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $50 per year.
(3) If the applicant is a dealer—
(A) in destructive devices or ammunition for destructive devices, a fee of $1,000 per year; or
(B) who is not a dealer in destructive devices, a fee of $200 for 3 years, except that the fee for renewal of a valid license shall be $90 for 3 years.

18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions
(11) The term "dealer" means
(A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,
(B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or
(C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term "licensed dealer" means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

Chapter 9.41 RCW FIREARMS AND DANGEROUS WEAPONS

18 U.S. Code Chapter 44 - FIREARMS

 

[usagi]

Can a C&R FFL purchase a firearm in Washington as long as it is C&R eligible with no further background check? Thanks

no.

this is not the exemption you are looking for.

594 was very carefully and deliberately written to require C&R FFL owners to go through background checks for every sale. C&R FFL is not exempt.

sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[coop44]

I don't see any restrictions on taking my C&R out of state, using it to buy a C&R eligible firearm and returning with it.

 

[usagi]

I don't see any restrictions on taking my C&R out of state, using it to buy a C&R eligible firearm and returning with it.

be careful which state you buy it from. in some states (eg NY) it may not be legal for you to take possession of the firearm.

 

[308]

no.

this is not the exemption you are looking for.

594 was very carefully and deliberately written to require C&R FFL owners to go through background checks for every sale. C&R FFL is not exempt.

sorry to burst your bubble.

So it sounds like you are also saying a person in Wa. State with a C&R cannot purchase a C&R eligible firearm from, say, aimsurplus.com in Ohio without going through a background check?

I don't see restrictions listed on line for Washington


Edited:
Q: Are licensed collectors transfers of curio or relic firearms subject to the Brady law, including the provision for making background checks on transferees?

No. Transfers of curio or relic firearms by licensed collectors are not subject to the requirements of the Brady law. It is, however, unlawful to transfer a firearm to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person is a felon or is within any other category of persons prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms.
Firearms Q&As | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#brady-law)

 

[bnsaibum]

"RCW 9.41.113(1) All firearm sales or transfers, in whole or part in this state including without limitation a sale or transfer where either the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington, shall be subject to background checks unless specifically exempted by state or federal law. The background check requirement applies to all sales or transfers including, but not limited to, sales and transfers through a licensed dealer, at gun shows, online, and between unlicensed persons."

So far so good for the C&R exemption.

"RCW 9.41.113(1) All firearm sales or transfers, in whole or part in this state including without limitation a sale or transfer where either the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington, shall be subject to background checks unless specifically exempted by state or federal law. The background check requirement applies to all sales or transfers including, but not limited to, sales and transfers through a licensed dealer, at gun shows, online, and between unlicensed persons."

This is where it falls apart for the C&R licensee.

RCW 9.41.010(26) "Unlicensed person" means any person who is not a licensed dealer under this chapter.

RCW 9.41.010(13) "Licensed dealer" means a person who is federally licensed under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a).

Under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a) a licensed dealer makes money or their livelihood from selling firearms. A C&R license does not allow you to do so.

A C&R license does not appear to fit any of the exemptions for a background check under the law as changed by I-594.

 

[coop44]

be careful which state you buy it from. in some states (eg NY) it may not be legal for you to take possession of the firearm.

Of course, I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer. If I travel to a wild and strange place like Oregon or Idaho and use my C&R to purchase an eligible fire arm from a dealer or another C&R licensee I cannot see where the law has been violated. Driving it back or shipping it to myself AFTER it is purchased shouldn't be a problem either.

Of course Many 01 FFL's have no clue.

 

[bolus]

no.

this is not the exemption you are looking for.

594 was very carefully and deliberately written to require C&R FFL owners to go through background checks for every sale. C&R FFL is not exempt.

sorry to burst your bubble.

I doubt it was done on purpose. Most likely just the ignorance of the writers. I would bet a lot of money that not one of them had even heard of a C&R license.

Just the usual problem of people blinded by their emotions not even attempting to get a complete picture of what their law will do. A mix of the usual ignorance and stupidity and the desire to control people that drive so many of our laws.

Im sure there is no actual data but I imagine if one has a C&R license they are least likely to cause a crime.

 

[coop44]

very true, actually the law is a lot of cut and paste. To me it looks like it was put together hastily with little thought. Several phrases that were actually written make you stop and say "wtf were they thinking?".

 

[smlemk111]

Ok very interesting, I live in Corbett Oregon. What about buying a C&R firearm from a Washington resident who does not h,old any type of FFL, I purchase the firearm online , send him a copy of my FFL and have him ship it to me in Oregon. I have done this several time in the past not just to Washington but to other states as well. Where does the purchase take place in Oregon or Washington and would I as the buyer have to get a background check of the seller? Or would the seller have to get a background check on me? Or both?

 

[coop44]

Ok very interesting, I live in Corbett Oregon. What about buying a C&R firearm from a Washington resident who does not h,old any type of FFL, I purchase the firearm online , send him a copy of my FFL and have him ship it to me in Oregon. I have done this several time in the past not just to Washington but to other states as well. Where does the purchase take place in Oregon or Washington and would I as the buyer have to get a background check of the seller? Or would the seller have to get a background check on me? Or both?

Near as I can tell only the buyer is subject to BGC, as you are not a resident of WA I can't see how you are subject to their laws.
Additionally I don't see in the law where shipping out is even regulated, only shipping into the state.

 

[usagi]

So it sounds like you are also saying a person in Wa. State with a C&R cannot purchase a C&R eligible firearm from, say, aimsurplus.com in Ohio without going through a background check?

yes. that is what i am saying.

I don't see restrictions listed on line for Washington

the text of 594 restricts it.

 

[usagi]

I doubt it was done on purpose. Most likely just the ignorance of the writers. I would bet a lot of money that not one of them had even heard of a C&R license.

it was done on purpose. they very, very carefully wrote the text to exclude C&R license holders. they were very deliberate. it was not an accident or ignorance. they knew exactly what they were doing.