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building an AR pistol... does the lower have to say "pistol only?"

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by 74sporty, Feb 11, 2011.

  1. 74sporty

    74sporty metro portland Active Member

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    I was just wondering about the laws regarding building and owning an ar pistol. I want to know if i buy a lower from a private citizen, can i put a pistol upper on it and be kosher? legally kosher? What if i bought a lower from a gun store? I know you have to take off the stock on a pistol to be legal, but is this something that needs to be registered? What do i have to do or keep in mind to comply with oregon laws?

    Any help would be much appreciated
     
  2. SVT-ROY

    SVT-ROY Tigard Resident Beretta guru

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    I was inquiring about the same thing, you should order one new and have it registered as a pistol. I was going to do that but got an RRA "pistol only" lower with pistol buffer tube, just to be extra safe. GL on your build, there so dam fun you will love it. I built a 7 " 9mm AR pistol and its 99% done. Just waiting on xtm rails and houge overmold grip. A buddy thought it was an MP5 ahaha lololol
     
  3. cyclesarge

    cyclesarge Eugene OR, DUH! We're ALL in the NORTHWEST Well-Known Member

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    If you "take off the stock" it is still a "rifle", once a rifle always a rifle. A striped lower as sold from a dealer SHOULD be logged in as an "other" on the 4473, meaning neither a long gun nor a handgun. Which would make it kosher to build into either. To be safe on my AR pistol I bought a lower marked "PISTOL" because I got some "eyeballs" at my range shooting my previous AR pistol (not marked "PISTOL") so if anyone questioned it, I'd be able to point to the lower and say "See, it says "pistol" right there".
     
  4. 74sporty

    74sporty metro portland Active Member

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    The information i gathered was right about there too. Other states really need that "pistol only" labeled lower, but from what i've been told (by a few people) is that us oregonians dont need it when buying from an FFL. But another detail is, what if the lower isn't strip'd but has a stock and trigger group? Is it still considered "other?"
     
  5. cyclesarge

    cyclesarge Eugene OR, DUH! We're ALL in the NORTHWEST Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. If the lower has a stock on it it IS a rifle lower, I may be wrong though since it's not a COMPLETE rifle yet, assuming you are buying a NEW lower. State to state doesn't matter. BTW, my "pistol" marked lower was transfered as an "other".
     
  6. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    I agree with most of what you say, but not this. I could take any gun and mark it "Pistol" but that marking has NO legal bering on it status........... IF I took a pistol marked lower and put a stock and a 16"+ barrel it would legally be a rifle not a pistol even so marked.
     
  7. cyclesarge

    cyclesarge Eugene OR, DUH! We're ALL in the NORTHWEST Well-Known Member

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    True, there is no "legal" bearing to have anything marked pistol. But if an unknowing do-gooder at the range (or in the woods, or whatever) posed any questions I'd be able to point to the lower and say "See, it says "pistol" right there". Saving them from the hassle of having to scramble to try to report me to whoever. :bluelaugh:
    Also, I have a 9mm upper 7" barrel, shooting any rifle (even a .22lr) in the pistol pits is strictly prohibited, being able to quickly "prove" it's a pistol would save me grief.
     
  8. SVT-ROY

    SVT-ROY Tigard Resident Beretta guru

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    You talking about the action range at TCGC? I built a 7" 9mm upper I would like to use there. On my pistol lower of course
     
  9. el gringo loco

    el gringo loco PDX Member

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    I would not buy a lower from a private party to build a pistol. You dont know the history of the lower. If the lower has ever been transferred as a rifle before you buy it, it is still a rifle. My understanding is that if it has ever had a stock on it, it is a rifle forever. If I was going to make a pistol (and I don't really think I ever would) I would get a pistol marked lower, or buy a new stripped lower and make sure it was transferred as a pistol.
     
  10. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    How do you do that legally since it is NOT a pistol and cant be transferred as one?

    Right from the current 4473, http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

    Question 18. Type of Firearm(s): Check all boxes that apply. “Other” refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are not either handguns or long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms.

    If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, they still are “firearms” by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(b). 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a “firearm other than a shotgun or rifle,” it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not “pistols or revolvers” under Section 923(g)(3)(a).
     
  11. SVT-ROY

    SVT-ROY Tigard Resident Beretta guru

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    Buy a pistol only lower if your worried about it Like I did.

    This is my "pistol", thats what ATF calls it and who am i to argue lol
    I built over 6 months so it wouldn't take a bite out of my budget. I never thought I would want or build one but its grown on me so much my M4gery is jelous.

    IMG_20110212_182716.jpg
     
  12. 74sporty

    74sporty metro portland Active Member

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    thanks everyone for the input. what nwcid wrote made sense and if i read right, i am good to buy a lower thats not transfered as "rifle" or "pistol," but as other. this is what i was told by an ffl. i dont really get the point of the complicated law anyhow. i know we are allowed to own pistol ar's so why would they not want us to swap pistol to rifle barrels or visa versa? people change rifle barrels all the time. forgive me if i sound ignorant, but its just not obvious to me. i could kinda see how they can worry about pistol barrels being more concealable and would be used in crime or something, but the truth is that we live in a state where the ar pistol is leagal. they're here already. if someone wants to commit crime with one they will, with or without that pointless regulation. and regulations like this mostly effects the lawful gun owners. criminals dont own guns legally. this nit picky law about the "no stock" thing is silly. i doubt it has done anything to prevent violent crime. why would criminals even know this law. i didn't and im a lawful gun owner. why would they? i just dont like a bunch a stuuupid regulations on the things i own. like my bike or my car. if i wanna make it fast, im gonna make it fast. im sorry its loud, thats just what happens. its a byproduct. its a byproduct from the extra huevos. how the **** do they justify telling me what i can and cannot do with my things? stock goes on the pistol... im breaking the law. stock slides off in 2 seconds, im legal again. what if i had an ar pistol already, but wanted to see how the short barrel fired in my other ar's reciever? swap em out at the range for some test shootin? how do i not i have that freedom to do that if they are MY things? what were they trying to do when they came up with these regulations? its pointless...
     
  13. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    Because at a Federal level there are definitions and rules. While I don't like it anymore then anyone else they are the laws. Breaking these laws have very stiff penalties. The only legal thing that can be done is to try and change those rules if you don't like them.

    It is very comparable to your car or bike, there are plenty of rules. You can make it go as fast as you want, but if you exceed the speed limit and get caught........ If you make it too loud there are rules against that too....... How about something as simple as tinting your windows, well there are laws on that too............
     
  14. Dieselfuel12v

    Dieselfuel12v Bellingham Member

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    Slight bump. I bought a new stripped arms and ammo lower, pretty sure my FFL transferred it as a rifle (i'd have to call), it would be illegal to get a pistol upper and pistol buffer tube w/foam?
     
  15. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    Well if he did transfer it as a "rifle" he did wrong. It is NOT a rifle or a pistol, it IS a receiver and there is a spot right for that on the 4473 you filled out, http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf read question 18 and the answer section on page 5. That is right from the ATF.

    Even if it was listed as a rifle and you could prove (burden of proof is on you this time. Say the sales receipt saying receiver only) it was a virgin receiver at the point of sale then you could still legally build it into a pistol as it has never been a rifle by the ATF's definition.
     
  16. Dieselfuel12v

    Dieselfuel12v Bellingham Member

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    That's why I love this site, you guys are a helpful group. It was definitely my bad for not looking over what he had checked there before signing. I take it I should buy another receiver anyway, since it would be illegal to swap a 16" upper and stock onto this once I have put a pistol upper on it (if I wanted to swap back and forth). These laws makes absolutely zero sense, we can have a ar pistol, but no Sbr, just strange really.
     
  17. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    OK so what is the LONGEST the barrel can be and still be classified as a pistol?

    And I have found some "pistol" lowers about the same price as all the others.So if it worries you,they aren't much different in price.
     
  18. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    I have never seen a legal definition of a pistol with a maximum OAL or barrel length. So if it does not have a stock, then the barrel can be as long as you like.
     
  19. Dieselfuel12v

    Dieselfuel12v Bellingham Member

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    That's what my FFL said as well ^.
     
  20. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    So if you wanted to carry in the car and then shoot some PDs while out,you could have a 20" upper/barrel on your pistol lower.Or just carry the spare with you.
    And not have a butt stock in the vehicle.(?)

    But if you DID do such a thing,it would be wise to have the lower marked "pistol" to show the LEO it was in fact a pistol
    And not have a butt stock in the vehicle.(?)

    Man a guy should have a folder in his car with the laws to show the LEO if you're gunna carry a AR pistol around