Brace yourselves - a CHL holder did a bad thing.

[chemist]

<broken link removed>

Clackamas County Sheriff's Office investigators said a man who opened fire and wounded another man in a Clackamas Fred Meyer checkout line had a concealed weapons permit.

Rather than hiding from this story and blaming "that durned librul rag" for merely reporting the news, we need to get ahead of this and reassert:
1) Constitutional rights are inviolable unless and until revoked by due process.
2) CHL holders commit crimes at far lower rates than the general population.
3) CHL holders deter criminals, but it doesn't make the news when nobody gets hurt or arrested.

I'm sick of hearing about this "national conversation" that we're supposed to be having about trashing 2A every time somebody commits a crime with a gun. But the ignorant and lame blame-the-messenger comments at the end of the article are not helpful, as if it's not news when a CHL goes off the reservation. Let's keep our eye on the ball and avoid polarizing language when we discuss this with those who hold differing views.

Read More

 

[AlphaCoyote]

But I gotta say it: This idea that CHL holders are, by that fact alone, safe people is just not true. A person doesn't have to be a felon, a domestic violence perp, or a mental incompetent to be dangerous.

 

[Misterbill]

But I gotta say it: This idea that CHL holders are, by that fact alone, safe people is just not true. A person doesn't have to be a felon, a domestic violence perp, or a mental incompetent to be dangerous.

Statistically, CCW permit holders are the most law abiding class of people in the country.

 

[accessbob]

Already running here:
http://www.northwestfirearms.com/ge...g-inside-clackamas-fred-meyer.html#post664144

 

[BGS2]

That showed remarkably poor judgement but being able to pass a background check doesn't ensure good judgement. I agree, that will be used as another example of why guns should be banned. Thanks for your common sense suggestions.

 

[AlphaCoyote]

Statistically, CCW permit holders are the most law abiding class of people in the country.

Probably true of Senior Citizens too. Then one of them goes off. So what do we make of that? Seniors are no threat and we should leave them alone and let them do what they want? "Don't worry about him; he has a [CHL][AARP Card]?"

Statistics are ok, but individuals are the people pulling the trigger.

 

[Misterbill]

Probably true of Senior Citizens too. Then one of them goes off. So what do we make of that? Seniors are no threat and we should leave them alone and let them do what they want? "Don't worry about him; he has a [CHL][AARP Card]?"

Statistics are ok, but individuals are the people pulling the trigger.

And? What's your point?

 

[AlphaCoyote]

That was my point. Read the post.

 

[VW_Factor]

I started reading about this incident this morning.

I've seen all sorts of "facts" about this conflicting.

Media is going to jump on the guy immediately of course.

I'd like to know.

Did this guy simply go overboard in his decision to defend himself or was he the aggressor?

 

[Grunwald]

<broken link removed>



Rather than hiding from this story and blaming "that durned librul rag" for merely reporting the news, we need to get ahead of this and reassert:
1) Constitutional rights are inviolable unless and until revoked by due process.
2) CHL holders commit crimes at far lower rates than the general population.
3) CHL holders deter criminals, but it doesn't make the news when nobody gets hurt or arrested.

I'm sick of hearing about this "national conversation" that we're supposed to be having about trashing 2A every time somebody commits a crime with a gun. But the ignorant and lame blame-the-messenger comments at the end of the article are not helpful, as if it's not news when a CHL goes off the reservation. Let's keep our eye on the ball and avoid polarizing language when we discuss this with those who hold differing views.

How many people are killed by police? Maybe I should rephrase to how many people are unjustifiably killed by the police? I do not hear about having a convrrsation about disarming the cops. (we know that would be a stupid idea)

 

[Misterbill]

But I gotta say it: This idea that CHL holders are, by that fact alone, safe people is just not true. A person doesn't have to be a felon, a domestic violence perp, or a mental incompetent to be dangerous.

So...the world isn't all lolipops and rainbows? No Kidding.

People will do stupid and sometimes evil things. Period.

No law you could pass would stop that and any law which TRIED to prevent it would be such an imposition on the rest of society that you'd be living in an Orwellian nightmare in search of safety.

There IS no answer for this stuff. Better funding for mental health would be a good idea, but it's not likely to stop a true psychopath. And we have no way to measure "good judgement," outside the already existing rules of no felons with guns.

It's too bad someone with a CCW permit did something wrong, but frankly cops are convicted of felonies at higher rates that CCW permit holders. I have a hard time getting all worked up over "one of us" doing something boneheaded or illegal. It's going to happen and NOTHING can really stop it.

 

[chemist]

cops are convicted of felonies at higher rates that CCW permit holders

Misterbill, I can't find those stats anywhere. What I see is the Texas study, which found that DUI was the most common crime resulting in CCW revocation, and that license holders have overall an arrest rate 13 times lower than the gen pop. But I don't see a breakdown of types of crimes committed by CCW holders. Do you have a link?

<broken link removed>
Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Misterbill]

Misterbill, I can't find those stats anywhere. What I see is the Texas study, which found that DUI was the most common crime resulting in CCW revocation, and that license holders have overall an arrest rate 13 times lower than the gen pop. But I don't see a breakdown of types of crimes committed by CCW holders. Do you have a link?

<broken link removed>
Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't have a link. I'm repeating what I heard John Lott say at a conference.

 

[slicediceputinrice]

this is Portland's own 9-11

 

[biggie24420]

I know of someone who is interested in getting a CHL and I personally don't think they are fit to carry a loaded gun.... but I don't have the authority to issue or not issue a CHL to them.

I know someone who has a CHL and he does dumb things and never learns from his mistake.... poor decision maker. If one can't make a sound and common since decisions, how is that person gonna make the right choice when deadly force is an option on the table? . Unfortunately that person had a clean background and the county did issue him a license.

Unfortunately I know of someone (I used to be friends with him but not anymore once I saw his true colors) who used to open carry in a loose manor (using an open top holster without retention) in a 5 o'clock position on their waist. When I told him he needs to change his ways, his response was that no one was gonna take his gun and that I don't need to worry.
This same person has admitted to me that when he went to a certain middle eastern restaurant, he pulled out his pistol and placed it on the table as he ate. This person was arrested in Salem because he was wearing cammo DBU with a face mask, listening to loud Arabic music in his car.... and the reason why he was arrested was because he flashed a realistic looking AK47 paintball gun.... someone saw him and freaked out so that person called the cops and the police shut down the street and arrested the IDIOT at gun point.
This same person also got a DUI in 2011 and he had his CHL revoked and also lost his ODL for one year. This same person has been known to drink and drive prior to the DUI arrest. Not to mention that this person has wrecked two cars because of cell phone texting while driving and sleeping behind the wheel.
Oh and one last thing, this guy wants to be a cop .... I am sure the DUI will not hold him back from being a cop.... yeah right!. And yes he is a member on this site, but I will not provide any names.

So why am I telling you guys all this? well just because someone has a clean criminal background and is able to obtain a CHL, CPL, CCW etc. it doesn't mean that person is fit to carry a firearm. Personally I don't feel safe around these people and I do my best to avoid them.

These are the types who will make the rest of us look bad because they are immature and can't grow up. I personally have had my CHL since 2004 and I have never been arrested as an adult (I had a juvenile run in with the cops), never had a drug/alcohol charge/arrest. I do my best to remain quiet and non confrontational..... I have no problem backing down and walking away when things get hairy but I will also stand my ground if cornered, and I will use deadly force if I am in fear for my life.

Just because someone has a license, it doesn't mean they are a good person and you can't trust anyone (almost anyone). Cops, military, CHL holder, and family members have all snapped in the past and done horrible things and that is just part of the human nature.

 

[Misterbill]

I know of someone who is interested in getting a CHL and I personally don't think they are fit to carry a loaded gun.... but I don't have the authority to issue or not issue a CHL to them.

I know someone who has a CHL and he does dumb things and never learns from his mistake.... poor decision maker. If one can't make a sound and common since decisions, how is that person gonna make the right choice when deadly force is an option on the table? . Unfortunately that person had a clean background and the county did issue him a license.

Unfortunately I know of someone (I used to be friends with him but not anymore once I saw his true colors) who used to open carry in a loose manor (using an open top holster without retention) in a 5 o'clock position on their waist. When I told him he needs to change his ways, his response was that no one was gonna take his gun and that I don't need to worry.
This same person has admitted to me that when he went to a certain middle eastern restaurant, he pulled out his pistol and placed it on the table as he ate. This person was arrested in Salem because he was wearing cammo DBU with a face mask, listening to loud Arabic music in his car.... and the reason why he was arrested was because he flashed a realistic looking AK47 paintball gun.... someone saw him and freaked out so that person called the cops and the police shut down the street and arrested the IDIOT at gun point.
This same person also got a DUI in 2011 and he had his CHL revoked and also lost his ODL for one year. This same person has been known to drink and drive prior to the DUI arrest. Not to mention that this person has wrecked two cars because of cell phone texting while driving and sleeping behind the wheel.
Oh and one last thing, this guy wants to be a cop .... I am sure the DUI will not hold him back from being a cop.... yeah right!. And yes he is a member on this site, but I will not provide any names.

So why am I telling you guys all this? well just because someone has a clean criminal background and is able to obtain a CHL, CPL, CCW etc. it doesn't mean that person is fit to carry a firearm. Personally I don't feel safe around these people and I do my best to avoid them.

These are the types who will make the rest of us look bad because they are immature and can't grow up. I personally have had my CHL since 2004 and I have never been arrested as an adult (I had a juvenile run in with the cops), never had a drug/alcohol charge/arrest. I do my best to remain quiet and non confrontational..... I have no problem backing down and walking away when things get hairy but I will also stand my ground if cornered, and I will use deadly force if I am in fear for my life.

Just because someone has a license, it doesn't mean they are a good person and you can't trust anyone (almost anyone). Cops, military, CHL holder, and family members have all snapped in the past and done horrible things and that is just part of the human nature.

Great!

You're willing to strip someone of a basic human right (self defense) because you think he's an idiot. Good for you, welcome to the club. If everyone I thought was an idiot was stripped of the right to vote, we'd have a LOT fewer voter in this country.

I don't get to make that decision, Thank God. Neither do you.

The right to carry is just the right to self-defense. If you deny it to your idiot friend, you also deny it to my daughter, who has no way to resist a rapist OTHER than lethal force, because she's smaller, weaker, not as fast as her attacker.

There is NO difference. If you want a judgement est for confealed carry, I'll go along with that right after you agree to a judgement test for the right to free speech, voting, freedom from unwarranted searches etc.

You don't qualify rights. You either have them or you don't.

 

[biggie24420]

Misterbill- I am simply sharing my opinion. If people wanna defend themselves that's fine as long as they are capable. But I think that we can both agree that some people are not fit to carry a gun. A mentally challenged person has the right to self defense and to live but I don't think they should have a gun if they are not fit to carry, own, and use. If your daughter is capable of carrying legally and responsibly, great for her. Not everyone is fit to carry a gun and that's what I'm trying to say.... It's sad but that's how life is based on what I have experienced in my 31 years on this planet.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Perhaps some people are rushing to judgement?

Witnesses say Fred Meyer shooter acted in self defense - KPTV - FOX 12

 

[pokerace]

Oregon Firearms Federation
OFF ALERT 8.29.12
"PERMANENT RULES" TO BE ADOPTED FOR CHL "PRIVACY"


The "temporary" ones are being ignored.

In spite of the passage of HB 4045, CHL information is still being disclosed to the press.

The Department of Justice will be adopting "permanent" rules to implement HB 4045. We want your input.

More info at either of the following links:

Oregon Firearms Federation

http://tinyurl.com/8tbjfpe

 

[gehrheart]

Despite that some should not carry or maybe even own guns... I still maintain the right shall not be infringed, and the fact we have to have a card that gives us permission to carry is in fact an infringement.
But hey I am just some nutty guy that believes in the absolute writing of our constitution.

A CHL does not make you a better person, doesn't make you a safer person and this to me shows that the having these requirements are pretentious false safety set to control the people.