BP Substitute expert knowledge needed for metallic cartridge loading questions.

arakboss

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I would like to load up some BP substitute in some 350 Legend rounds to be used in single shot rifle. How would you decide which substitute powder and which primer to use? How would you develope a charge volume for a given weight bullet. Same questions if I decide to use real black powder.
 

arakboss

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Here is one persons method for triple 7 powder which I already have on hand.

There isn’t any voodoo to the process. You just have to know how deep your bullet sits in the case. The easiest way to do that is to take a wooden dowel and stand it along side of your bullet and mark the stick at the height of the crimp groove on the bullet. To determine your powder charge until you can put the dowel on top of it and your crimp line is even with the case mouth. However much powder that is, it will be your load for that particular bullet
 
I can't recommend Black Powder Substitute powders of any brand.
I have tried many and found them to be far more corrosive than actual black powder.

Others will disagree with the above...but I stand by this statement , due to many years of shooting black powder firearms.
Also in my experience most BP substitute powders do not "burn" as hot as actual black powder , so ignition can be slow to not at all in some firearms.

I would suggest using actual black powder for the purpose of the OP.

I have loaded BP in some smokeless firearm cartridges....
However , not having any experience with the cartridge in the OP , I can't offer any suggestions as for load data.
Andy
 

ageingstudent

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I can't recommend Black Powder Substitute powders of any brand.
I have tried many and found them to be far more corrosive than actual black powder.

Others will disagree with the above...but I stand by this statement , due to many years of shooting black powder firearms.
Also in my experience most BP substitute powders do not "burn" as hot as actual black powder , so ignition can be slow to not at all in some firearms.

I would suggest using actual black powder for the purpose of the OP.

I have loaded BP in some smokeless firearm cartridges....
However , not having any experience with the cartridge in the OP , I can't offer any suggestions as for load data.
Andy
Have you done cartridge loadings in .38 Andy? I have a bunch of .358 soft round ball coated castings I'd like to try that with. I don't do a lot of BP. Wondering about brand and type and volume of measure. I'd like to try a few in my SP101 4". I bet they make a lot of smoke. Might be fun. Till I have to clean the mess anyway:p.
 
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I would like to load up some BP substitute in some 350 Legend rounds to be used in single shot rifle.
Just wondering as to why you want to do this as opposed to just loading conventionally with smokeless powder?

I am a long term BP shooter but have never considered loading (modern) centerfire ammo with BP (or a substitute).
 
Have you done cartridge loadings in .38 Andy? I have a bunch of .358 soft round ball coated castings I'd like to try that with. I don't do a lot of BP. Wondering about brand and type and volume of measure. I'd like to try a few in my SP101 4". I bet they make a lot of smoke. Might be fun. Till I have to clean the mess anyway:p.
I have indeed.
Being a straight walled case...its easy to do.
I'll poke around and see if I can find my re-loading notes.
I do remember using soft lead 158 round nose ...and 148 weight wad cutters.....

Smoke , flame and flash.....:D
Andy
 

ageingstudent

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I have indeed.
Being a straight walled case...its easy to do.
I'll poke around and see if I can find my re-loading notes.
I do remember using soft lead 158 round nose ...and 148 weight wad cutters.....

Smoke , flame and flash.....:D
Andy
Thank you Andy that would be greatly appreciated. You're always welcome to PM me.

Mike
 

oremike

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You might look at AA 5744 as a powder to try,
Accurate 5744 is an extremely fast burning, double-base, extruded powder. This unique powder can be used in a wide range of rifle calibers and magnum handguns. 5744 is characterized by excellent ignition and consistency over a very wide performance range. Low bulky density and superior ignition characteristics make 5744 an excellent choice for reduced loads in many rifle calibers and in large capacity black powder cartridges such as the 45-70 through 45-120 and 50-90 through 50-120. Made in Canada.
 
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Good answer and a good reason!

With regard to BP substitutes I had a very good experience with Pyrodex P and still use it.

A few years ago I ran out of BP and couldn't get it locally so I 'reluctantly' bought a can of Pyrodex. My 'reluctance' changed into 'Glad I did' after the first shot.

I prepped carefully, to equate loading wit BP and was pleasantly surprised with my first shot. It was very accurate and the report had a sharper 'crack' to it as opposed to the sound of a shot with BP. Also the recoil seemed a bit more than I had remembered with BP.

As far as buildup it seemed about the same as BP but maybe a bit 'thinner' and I was able to stretch out an extra shot or two (as opposed to BP) before a barrel swab.

As far as 'corrosiveness' I can't say it's any greater than BP as I don't leave my guns sit around long without cleaning.

In all fairness however I was shooting only percussion and Pyrodex only so I cannot speak for any of the other brands or experiences with flintlocks.

I suspect the debate between substitutes vs. BP will go on forever and I read many on a ML forum. Like anything however some 'Haters gonna hate' and I am sure some people have experienced problems with substitutes and that could be due to inexperience or possibly not using the correct substitute for their application.
 
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I have used Pyrodex in places where it was extremely hot and dry. In those conditions it left less fouling , and was easier to clean up after. Good Luck, DR
 

tac

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I have used Pyrodex 'Cartridge' grade in my .45-70 High Wall to see if I could replicate the 70gr BP load of the original. The loads I used can be read by anybody with the Hodgdon manual, so in the interests of reducing the chances of being sued I'm not posting them here.

Suffice it to say that results were less than impressive - in MY experience - and leave it at that.

However, I've NEVER tried to load ANY modern cartridge in my possession with either BP or a sub, since it might well be 'fun' but not the kind that I'd necessarily enjoy unless I could easily obtain lead bullets to shoot rather than modern jacketed types.
 
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I would like to load up some BP substitute in some 350 Legend rounds to be used in single shot rifle. How would you decide which substitute powder and which primer to use? How would you develope a charge volume for a given weight bullet. Same questions if I decide to use real black powder.
If you can find any you should consider Trail Boss powder.
 

osprey

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Pyrodex and most of the bp subs are quite corrosive and will require a thorough cleaning of the firearm and the brass after every shooting session. I am not sure why you would want to go this route when there are good modern powders suitable for your experiments. I can’t see much if any cost savings as bp and the subs are right up there in purchase price and the volume used per shot would generally be greater than a smokeless powder. The only reason I could possibly see is availability as I have seen pyrodex on shelves in many places lately. The only bp sub I really like these days is BH 209 as it is truly non corrosive and gives very good results with 209 primers and lr primers in my testing. It has been scarce lately but midway had some a few weeks back, however it is definitely not cheap. I will link their cartridge load chart recommendations. One thing to take note of when measuring bh209, it does note equate to bp or its subs in volume measurement so weighing out just like smokeless powder is recommended. 100 grains of bp or its subs by volume is roughly equivalent to 70gr of bh209 by weight.

 
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tac

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I use TWO nitro loads in a .45-70 Govt cartridge. Both are reasonably accurate at 50 and 100m, but the cartridge is NOT a tack driver by any means. The bullet is a hard-cast 405gr lead FN with four grooves packed with a hard lube.

Load #1 - 12.5gr of Unique plus natural wadding - NOT a man-made material.

Load #2 - 34gr of 4198, a card wad but no crimping.

The first you can shoot all the day long and it's ideal for people shooting a big-bore rifle for the first time without getting intimidated.

The second is somewhat more exciting, but not mind-blowingly so. The crescent stock on MY High Wall will certainly bite you if you hold the gun incorrectly, in the shoulder instead of at the top of the arm, but with a halfway decent protector it'll be just fine.

I've also tried shooting my .357Mag revolver with BP loads, but not subs. Thankfully, it's all stainless, so the cleanup wasn't as painful as it might have been. Apart from the smoke and smell, accuracy at ~800 fps wasn't too bad, but at 50m the bullets were falling out of the sky - 25m was really max for accuracy.

I'spose I could try any of the subs - I have Pyrodex Ctg [cartridge], RS really for rifle and shotgun] Triple 7 and Select, and get back to you.
 
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Thank you, Dan.

lwlP6m.jpg
 

tac

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ATTENTION ADMINISTRATORS!

Fore reasons I can't even begin to figure out, I am now a 'new member' called 'plunderer3'. This is part of my other email address - plunderer3[at]gmail.com, and is not one that I use except for business.

If anybody gets anything from that address, be advised that I have not sent it.
 

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