Bombshell: Biden to meet with NRA!

[Norm0931]

Well aside from the NRA what other pro-gun groups is he meeting with. The "task force" is seriously stacked against us.

Anti-Gun involved:

Bloomberg + staff as "advisors" (everytime I've ever heard advisor or been an advisor it's been as a de facto boss)
Feinstein
Gifford
Brady Campaign
A boston cop who's son is in prison for planning a school shooting


kinda one sided

 

[DireWolf]

So you're citing a plea by the site admin calling for 2A outreach to fellow citizens to criticize a poster for calling out the regime for being a thugocracy?

If you haven't noticed yet, the regime is pretty much totally detached from the people at this point.

You must have skimmed over the parts about how liberals love rape and murder.

As a pro-2A Left Libertarian (in the flavor of maybe an Edward Abbey) I see crap like that here. On other forums I see people that have no real clue about firearms, and want to ram crap gun control down peoples throats. Rhetoric like the above on both sides is the problem, and continues the "Us vs. Them" mentality that requires maturity and communication to overcome. As I said in another thread, ignorance is louder than reason, and it is alive and well here. The fact that characterizations like that are allowed is surprising, as I would only assume that if the tables were turned and I started saying "Conservatives like rape and murder and genocide and torture", I suspect I'd be banned in pretty short order. Not to mention it solves nothing other than reinforce stupid stereotypes, and keep a nation divided while the established plutocracy pick the carcass clean to line their own pockets.

Wake. Up.

 

[chariot13]

(in the flavor of maybe an Edward Abbey) I see crap like that here.

You don't say?

 

[Boats]

Wake. Up.

Lol. Take your own advice. It isn't the conservatives trying to abrogate the right to choose the self-defense gun of one's preference.

 

[DireWolf]

You don't say?

I do. I doubt you get the reference beyond the surface.

Be part of the solution, not part of the precipitate.

Lol. Take your own advice. It isn't the conservatives trying to abrogate the right to choose the self-defense gun of one's preference.

That whoosh sound you just heard was my point flying over your head.

 

[BadMotel]

I don't think you guys understand what he's saying.

NOT SAYING:
-Gun control is good.
-Arguing against gun control is bad (if done properly)

IS SAYING:
-Ignorant a-holes who say "Leftists love rape and murder' are not the people who make good discussion about anything. Sure he might agree with what you're saying, but if his reason for not likeing Biden is simply he's a "leftist", maybe you should try to educate him on specific policies that need criticizing instead of cheering him on.
-If were to say all republicans "support rape and murder" (al la congressmen who claim rape-pregnancy is the will of god, or supporting torture and indefinite imprisonment of suspects without a trial), then we'd get the ban-hammer fairly quickly.

 

[dmancornell]

You must have skimmed over the parts about how liberals love rape and murder.

As a pro-2A Left Libertarian (in the flavor of maybe an Edward Abbey) I see crap like that here. On other forums I see people that have no real clue about firearms, and want to ram crap gun control down peoples throats. Rhetoric like the above on both sides is the problem, and continues the "Us vs. Them" mentality that requires maturity and communication to overcome. As I said in another thread, ignorance is louder than reason, and it is alive and well here. The fact that characterizations like that are allowed is surprising, as I would only assume that if the tables were turned and I started saying "Conservatives like rape and murder and genocide and torture", I suspect I'd be banned in pretty short order. Not to mention it solves nothing other than reinforce stupid stereotypes, and keep a nation divided while the established plutocracy pick the carcass clean to line their own pockets.

Wake. Up.

Meh. Replace "leftist" with 'statist" and his rant is spot-on. I'd agree with you the leftist label is pointless. That said the vast majority of leftists are statists and even you cannot dispute that.

Us vs them is the reality we face. The people vs the murder-theft regime. Anyone who supports the regime is an enemy and should be treated as such.

 

[BarbusBadarse]

this thread sux

 

[BadMotel]

No. Just no. Think of it like this:

They think they're doing the right thing.

Maybe you think they're the "murder-theft regime", whatever, I don't really care. Maybe they actually do want to go door to door and and take all our guns. Doubt it, but lets go that route for a minute. They're reaching the people of the United States by not being the murder regime. They're getting it into the heads of people, voters and families on both sides of the aisle, that further gun-control will stop murders.

For pete-sake leave that whole "Obama is a criminal terrorist" attitude at the door and think rationally! If you want to convince people you're right, don't tell them you are simply because your opponent are bad-guys, give them facts! Show them the FBI crime statistics that show violent crime has gone down since 2004 when the previous AWB expipred! Show them Chicago PD stastics that lay-out how many repeat felon gang-banger get their hands on guns and continue to commit violent crime! SHOW THEM THEIR IDEAS WON'T WORK! That's how you win a debate, not by saying "Yeah well I don't like you, so there."

 

[chariot13]

I do.

So you know the flavor of a socialist? I've always wondered what one would taste like.

I doubt you get the reference beyond the surface..

The surface looks like crap. I don't need to taste it to know the flavor.

 

[dmancornell]

For pete-sake leave that whole "Obama is a criminal terrorist" attitude at the door and think rationally! If you want to convince people you're right, don't tell them you are simply because your opponent are bad-guys, give them facts!

Fact: Obama used drones to murder thousands of people.
Fact: Obama is the head of a criminal cartel that steals trillions of dollars a year in the guise of taxes, which is then used to pay off special interests in unions, banks and corporations.
Fact: Obama is a criminal terrorist.

But tell that to your average statist and he'll cheer the drone-murders and taxes as "social justice" or somesuch. Statists don't care if their ideas murder and steal as long as the result reinforces the almighty State. Giving them facts is a waste of time.

 

[BadMotel]

I'm not going to argue with you, I'll just say that you're working against yourself. Whether you're right or wrong, you're giving the general public a clear picture of you as a crazy, anti-establishment conspiracy theorist who shuns facts and statistics. You would rather support and armed revolution to get your way than work within the rules of the system to convince others of your points.

You're fighting a losing battle, but I'll just continue to stand here and watch you fall all day.

 

[dmancornell]

I'm not going to argue with you, I'll just say that you're working against yourself. Whether you're right or wrong, you're giving the general public a clear picture of you as a crazy, anti-establishment conspiracy theorist who shuns facts and statistics. You would rather support and armed revolution to get your way than work within the rules of the system to convince others of your points.

You're fighting a losing battle, but I'll just continue to stand here and watch you fall all day.

LOL, I gave you facts which you blithely ignored. Here's more:

Amazon.com: Crisis and Leviathan: Critical Episodes in the Growth of American Government (9781598131116): Robert Higgs, Arthur A. Ekirch Jr.: Books

That book decisively proves that the federal regime has used every crisis, either of its own making or otherwise, to expand its power.

I find it amusing that you claim I prefer violence to facts and logic, when it is the state that operates exclusively with violence and coercion, and the most political violence I've ever done is wave a Ron Paul sign at someone.

 

[DireWolf]

So you know the flavor of a socialist? I've always wondered what one would taste like.

The surface looks like crap. I don't need to taste it to know the flavor.

How did I know you wouldn't understand the reference.

You thinking he was a socialist confirms that easily enough.

Fact: Obama used drones to murder thousands of people.
Fact: Obama is the head of a criminal cartel that steals trillions of dollars a year in the guise of taxes, which is then used to pay off special interests in unions, banks and corporations.
Fact: Obama is a criminal terrorist.

Meh. Replace "Obama" with "Bush", and blah, blah, blah.

Keep up the good fight for the status quo.

 

[BadMotel]

Giving them facts is a waste of time.

LOL, I gave you facts which you blithely ignored.

So confused...

Amazon.com: Crisis and Leviathan: Critical Episodes in the Growth of American Government (9781598131116): Robert Higgs, Arthur A. Ekirch Jr.: Books

That book decisively proves that the federal regime has used every crisis, either of its own making or otherwise, to expand its power.

I find it amusing that you claim I prefer violence to facts and logic, when it is the state that operates exclusively with violence and coercion, and the most political violence I've ever done is wave a Ron Paul sign at someone.

So what you're saying is the Obama campaign is not doing anything worse than what the government has done since the beginning of our nation?

And the "facts" you listed above were not facts because you put the word "fact" in front of them, that's not how information works.

But we digress. This isn't about whether or not Obama is a criminal. In fact, I believe in my statement I emphasized that that point doesn't matter. The issue is that you're arguing in favor of guns rights in the wrong way, and since I'm made that claim you've only proven me right.

 

[dmancornell]

So confused...

Well apparently the statement that "Obama murderered thousands with drones" is not fact despite that it most certainly happened, and that the murderer himself is so proud of his "achievement" that he uses the line in his reelection campaign.

So indeed, I wasted my time.

So what you're saying is the Obama campaign is not doing anything worse than what the government has done since the beginning of our nation?

And the "facts" you listed above were not facts because you put the word "fact" in front of them, that's not how information works.

But we digress. This isn't about whether or not Obama is a criminal. In fact, I believe in my statement I emphasized that that point doesn't matter. The issue is that you're arguing in favor of guns rights in the wrong way, and since I'm made that claim you've only proven me right.

Oh no, the Obama regime is far worse. As the book points out, the regime *grows* over time.

The only point to be made is that treating the regime with any sort of respect at this time simply diminishes 2A because 2A is the anti-authoritarian amendment, and we currently live in an authoritarian regime. You can argue that we need to "respect the system" in order to appear "sane" to the general public, because apparently sanity means turning a blind eye to the criminal nature of government. How exactly will that promote 2A, by arguing for the legitimacy of the very kind of system it is designed to oppose?

Unless of course you believe 2A = hunting and concealed carry, in which case, go ahead and plead your case with people who willfully pay their protection money to the state.

 

[iusmc2002]

How did I know you wouldn't understand the reference.

You thinking he was a socialist confirms that easily enough.



Meh. Replace "Obama" with "Bush", and blah, blah, blah.

Keep up the good fight for the status quo.

About time someone brought Bush into this! I can't believe this thread went this long without it.

I'm willing to bet, that if Bush WAS still in office, dman would have no problem replacing "Obama" with "Bush" and saying the same damn thing.

But kudos on deflecting, again

 

[BadMotel]

For one, I believe the 2nd Amendment = my large caliber bolt-action rifle, mine and my girlfriends carry handguns, as well as my ak47. If you read my posts, I'm nothing but in favor of the 2nd amendment. Don't try to play the "I bet you don't even like guns" card to try and win the argument, because once again you'd be mistaken.

Second, you're clearly still not understanding my point. If 2 people are given a podium and an audience, the guy who shouts "THE GOVERNMENT IS A BUNCH OF CRIMINALS [blah blah blah]" is less convincing than the guy who presents factual data and statistics, tells people the truth about gun control effects on crime rates.

You're winning the argument against you. Alienating yourself from the general population doesn't get any followers. Be convincing and reasonable, garner votes for your candidates, and actually make a difference.

 

[dmancornell]

For one, I believe the 2nd Amendment = my large caliber bolt-action rifle, mine and my girlfriends carry handguns, as well as my ak47. If you read my posts, I'm nothing but in favor of the 2nd amendment. Don't try to play the "I bet you don't even like guns" card to try and win the argument, because once again you'd be mistaken.

Lou Horiuchi also loved his guns, so what's your point?

Second, you're clearly still not understanding my point. If 2 people are given a podium and an audience, the guy who shouts "THE GOVERNMENT IS A BUNCH OF CRIMINALS [blah blah blah]" is less convincing than the guy who presents factual data and statistics, tells people the truth about gun control effects on crime rates.

No, what I am saying is the government is a bunch of criminals because their sole method of enforcement is threat of violence or actual violence, and their main purpose is to steal money for themselves or redistribution for political favors. Not sure why you replaced that with "blah blah blah", probably because you don't like facing up to that core principle of government.

Also need I remind you that natural rights are sacrosanct and not to be violated regardless of statistics? Not that the stats are on your side, because civilian gun murders cannot compare with government gun murders.

You're winning the argument against you. Alienating yourself from the general population doesn't get any followers. Be convincing and reasonable, garner votes for your candidates, and actually make a difference.

And look at how well that has worked for 2A since 1934.

The only way to restore 2A is to make the general population realize the criminal nature of the government. The evidence is plentiful, people simply refuse to accept it... you know, "blah blah blah".

 

[BadMotel]

No amount of facepalms can indicate how much you truly, truly don't understand what is going on.

Let me go through this one more time. I'll try and keep it simple and not use big words, just for you.


-It is unlikely anyone here, myself included, favor more gun control. We support the 2nd amendment as it stands, and taking away that right, as a whole or in part, is bad for America.

-It doesn't matter, in the context of this debate, whether you think the Obama administration are a bunch of criminals or not.

-Shouting about how you think the government is a bunch of criminals isn't going to get many people on your side. There are people who agree with you and people who disagree with you who won't have their minds changed no matter what. What you're doing is making the influenceable people in the center think you are a lunatic.