Poll: Body Armor....What say you?

[CamoDeafie]

Okay so I ended up ordering 3 plates off eBay... one set of 10x12 Level III hard plates, supposedly coming with soft backers (either Level 2, 3a or foam? We shall see) from LBA International; (who apparently are under Safariland Group and RBR International); in standard shooters cut, and one PACA individual rectangle single curve 10x12 plate, also Level 3, which would be for the back bag. I might buy another PACA plate eventually, so as to have 2 sets with shooters fronts and rectangle backs.. or I might sell one plate. Not sure yet. We'll see when they arrive.

Edit. I'll be using them to fit custom plate carriers, probably one for myself for a retro look

 

[sobo]

Level 3??? Or Level 3A? There's a big difference, so I've been told here...

 

[CamoDeafie]

Level 3??? Or Level 3A? There's a big difference, so I've been told here...

Hard plates, Level 3. Soft plate backers included, may be 3a, or 2 or just foam

 

[Alexx1401]

Level 3??? Or Level 3A? There's a big difference, so I've been told here...

If you use your favorite search to look up "NIJ Ballistic levels" you will find many charts showing what they mean.
Then if you look up video's of people actually testing these things it's a real eye opener. The NIJ tests are done shot with different rounds. The selected level to meet that level has to stop it. One time. Watch the video and you see there is a HUGE difference in what "stop" means. When I heard about SafeLife I watched a few video's done by them, then some done by others who were not part of their team. The damn stuff they make is beyond anything I have ever seen in this area. There is one that was shown here where some guys take one of their vests and put one of their rifle plates in it and shoot it with a .50 BMG. It stopped the damn thing. Of course many saw it and the test went completely over their head, as in they did not get it. The test showed if you were wearing the vest the damage to you would have most likely been very bad if not fatal even though the vest stopped the round. The vest is NOT made to stop this round, it did anyway. They also have a bunch of tests of them taking a standard multi threat 3a and shooting it over and over again, some at point blank range and the vest just keeps soaking up the rounds without failing. that was the amazing part to me. These vests did not used to be able to hold up like that. It shows just how well they are made. Other video shows a guy taking a shield that is rated at level II and shooting it one time and it fails with rounds it is supposed to stop. So it was being sold as something it is not.
Bottom line if you can afford it buy a name brand vest. If anyone can't, anything is of course better than nothing. I am now real big on SafeLife. They are not the cheapest but damn they are impressive.

 

[sobo]

If you use your favorite search to look up "NIJ Ballistic levels" you will find many charts showing what they mean.

You mean, like this one?

 

[CamoDeafie]

Options

Plain ol front-back plate carrier;can be concealable/slick with no attachments.
Usually have elastic side straps, some don't.

MOLLE front/back;
Most have velcro plus MOLLE for pouches, or rigs, or panels, some also have flaps to attach a MOLLE cummerbund
Others have just MOLLE and 2 side straps

4-plate setups;
A doozy of variations out there, but most commonly are MOLLE with tall, stiff cummerbunds and the ability to accept neck protectors, shoulder armor, and groin armor.. they tend to be military in nature, or at least, attempt to be like the military rigs... usually the cummerbund has either side plate pockets built in, or attachments for them.


Full rigs
Soft armor vests plus plates
Some variations, usually brand or cut specific
Most are based on the SPEAR/BALCS cut and style..

Can be releasable, can be camos, solids, big and heavy usually, and definitely not "low profile"

Most are in fact military/LEO/PMC contract rigs.

Vintage armor systems dont have much real world usefulness (talking here about the PASGT and older police vests), but some may be able to accept new inserts and plates (RBA and SPEAR BALCS systems for example)

Sizing is another thing entirely.

The majority of rigs available are sized either for the soft armor size or for the plate size, not for the human torso size

SPEAR BALCS comes from X Small to supposedly, 3XL; I've never seen a military type carrier that big... not even 2XL

My Land CIRAS is XL BALCS and takes L ESAPI/SAPI plates with no adjustment for the plate itself the soft armor at XL Level 3A is very expensive for new, and even for new old stock. I do not see myself using the CIRAS for anything serious it is mostly a display piece because there are no armor in it

but it does give me a good look at how Eagle Industries build their military contract gear and how its assembled.. food for thought for my gearmaking.

 

[Alexx1401]

You mean, like this one?
View attachment 685232

Yep, that shows what the level means. If you look at some of the video's you will see not everything sold with the NIJ label really does what it claims. It's why I say if you are going to buy and can afford a known name brand, do.

 

[American123]

You mean, like this one?
View attachment 685232

The only thing charts like these are a bit misleading about is how speed is a factor. Armor stops threats at certain speeds or below. The calibers listed could still potentially penetrate the armor that is rated to stop them if they were traveling fast enough. 5.56 is a great example of a caliber that armor will, or won't stop depending on speed. Then factoring in that speed is based on pressure over time down the barrel. A longer barrel can produce a higher velocity than a shorter barrel. I've watched 16" barrels blast 5.56 at AR500 armor and the armor take it, but I've also watched 24" barrels shooting 5.56 put holes in the same armor. Just an example of how barrel length can change velocity and influence armor effectiveness.

 

[American123]

One great thing about the internet is how much research is already done, just waiting to be viewed.

I don't wear armor everyday for work, and my personal use of it is limited to exercise or training to move and shoot in it for fun. if I felt a desire enough to wear armor out of concern for my health, I'd put on rifle plates.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Here is the standards chart, note NIJ does not test .223 or 5.56 but in the text where I got this from, they claim it is supposed to stop 5.56 /.223 Rem for Level 3, although does not say which velocities. . For those saying "buh buh but ceramics one hit wonder" for Level III and IV, please note the test standard requires six shots per panel on the Level III, and one to six per panel (front, back, left, right plates)

Understanding NIJ Ballistic Threat Levels

NIJ Ballistic Threat Levels NIJ LEVEL I: This armor protects against .22 caliber Long Rifle Lead Round Nose (LR LRN) bullets with nominal masses of 2.6 g (40 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 320 m/s (1050 ft/s) or less and 380 ACP Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) bullets with...

cpgarmor.com

 

[American123]

Here's level 3 rifle plates stopping some ammo, not stopping some others. Speed kills.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Yep. Speed indeed kills. Again, this is where special threat rating is set forth by the armor manufacturers outside of the NIJ standards.

Level 3 and 4 plates may or may not be also Special Threat rated, depending on the manufacturer.

Edit. Some also are rated only in conjunction with 3A armor behind the plate

 

[Alexx1401]

Here we go again. <sigh>
There is a reason people who make this stuff do not refer to it as a "Bullet proof vest". Because it's not. Yes, no matter what the vest is rated at there is stuff that will defeat it. The idea of the armor, soft, or soft + is not to make you super man like on TV folks. The idea is to give you a better shot at surviving if you get shot. Even if the bullet makes it through the armor it will have to have slowed down a hell of a lot. Which translates to you may live. Since if the bullet is able to go through the armor and still get you what would it have done if you did not have the armor on? It is amazing how many seem to not get this.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Wear/Rigging question
Serious question though..
For the minimal, just front and back plate carriers... how many rifle mags are recommended?

LBE worn under or over the minimalist PC?

Here is what I am thinking, maybe not applicable for many

ALICE style padded belt kit with standard load of 6 mags, or 4 mags and a pistol and pistol mags; 2x 1qt canteens, or 1x 2qt canteens; Jungle FAK

I have padded H harness shoulder pads;

And I plan on making my own plate carrier to fit the 10x12 plates coming

What I am thinking in regards to the carrier... if I am already wearing the LBE, the carrier should be unpadded on the shoulders; since the LBE H harness pads would take the weight... but if I am wearing the carrier first, then LBE, then I should make the LBE H harness unpadded ?

The carrier itself may have 3 to maybe 6 rifle mags on it; if 6 mags, then the belt would be adjusted to just carry pistol and pistol mags.

It will not be a warbelt setup

Why am I thinking of having LBE worn first?
Because I may not need the armor all the time

But if I need to have it, I could just don it quckly over the LBE?


Edit. I've seen both methods being equally valid, usually with low profile combat suspenders/Y harnesses being worn with a relatively heavy belt kit under a standard 360 coverage plate carrier (USMC); while also seeing LBE/LBV/FLCs or chest rigs worn over the body armor; by all services...

 

[Gunbuggy]

Level 4 ceramic. Nij certified. Choose a comfortable cut

I made mistake of buying before knowing what I was doing. A friend I met on here Kinda helped me out and showed me The right path to go down

 

[Jcon268]

I have level III+ steel plates from Spartan Armor. Went that route due to their longevity. I don't use them in duty but they'll be there if I need them. I think I'm also going to invest in a set of level IV for my wife and I.

A good carrier is a must.

By the way, I'm thinking of trying out a swimmer's cut plate for better fitment with my carrier. If anyone has a Spartan level III+ swimmer's cut plate and wants to trade it for a shooter's cut plate, let me know.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Just got this in the apartment parcel mailbox. edit I got them to fit the green custom carrier, with some space for soft backers! Turns out it was a little tricky to insert cleanly, but some fiddling and bam they slid right in.
From lots of research..
Global Armour UK series;
Made by LBA International (now under Safariland Group LTD)
10.25-10.5" x12" according to tailor tape
Multi curve
Shooters cut, not swimmers
boron carbide and kevlar composite-ceramic
1.9kg/4.2lbs per plate
5/8" or 0.625" thickness, according to my tailor tape
Level III+SS109+RF1 NIJ01.101.04 certified on 06 plate, not RF1 on 05 plate

SS109=M855 series. RF1= 7.62x51 NATO soft core rifle ammunition (sort of redundant when Level III NIJ specs says 7.62x51 FMJ rating? )
Since they're missing model numbers/serial numbers, I believe they are also ICW plates as the ones I could find most info on. The package did not come with soft plates.. ebay auction did say hard plates only, perhaps only mentiomed soft plates as required to get full Level III+ protection.

So now I need to hunt down a set of good level 3A soft kevlar/aramid plate backers Then sew up a custom tailored carrier for them. They are too slim and small for the Diamondback Tactical carrier, which takes older spec Large SAPI plates.

 

[bennngeeee]

Wear/Rigging question
Serious question though..
For the minimal, just front and back plate carriers... how many rifle mags are recommended?

LBE worn under or over the minimalist PC?

Here is what I am thinking, maybe not applicable for many

ALICE style padded belt kit with standard load of 6 mags, or 4 mags and a pistol and pistol mags; 2x 1qt canteens, or 1x 2qt canteens; Jungle FAK

I have padded H harness shoulder pads;

And I plan on making my own plate carrier to fit the 10x12 plates coming

What I am thinking in regards to the carrier... if I am already wearing the LBE, the carrier should be unpadded on the shoulders; since the LBE H harness pads would take the weight... but if I am wearing the carrier first, then LBE, then I should make the LBE H harness unpadded ?

The carrier itself may have 3 to maybe 6 rifle mags on it; if 6 mags, then the belt would be adjusted to just carry pistol and pistol mags.

It will not be a warbelt setup

Why am I thinking of having LBE worn first?
Because I may not need the armor all the time

But if I need to have it, I could just don it quckly over the LBE?


Edit. I've seen both methods being equally valid, usually with low profile combat suspenders/Y harnesses being worn with a relatively heavy belt kit under a standard 360 coverage plate carrier (USMC); while also seeing LBE/LBV/FLCs or chest rigs worn over the body armor; by all services...

I believe 7 mags are recommended for a battle setup. 6 on you and one in the rifle. It is personal preference on where you want to put them all.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Wear/Rigging question
Serious question though..
For the minimal, just front and back plate carriers... how many rifle mags are recommended?

Back when I was in the Army ...
Our standard load for magazines was 7 ...one in the rifle and six in two pouches.
Now with that said....
I would often carry extra magazines in a Claymore mine bag when out on LRRP / LRSD patrols and the like....
At times I would ditch my "web gear" and just use the Claymore mine bag to carry the magazines , depending on my role at that point in a particular mission.
Andy

 

[CamoDeafie]

Tried the green carrier on my person, and because of how it fits my 5'7, 300lbs, 21" tall torso; if I bend down or kneel, the hard plate chokes me
So. Clearly; I need to come up with a better carrier design Since these plates are ICW plates, I need 3A soft armor... what I am thinking is probably that I would wait until I can get a good fit soft armor panel set; then design a custom carrier around that, that would in effect keep the plates from riding up into my throat
Or, aggressively drop pounds til I'm below 200 (a weight I haven't been at since oh, 1997ish )