Black Powder Burn Characteristics ?

[arakboss]

I have read with smokeless powder that there is a danger of powder igniting ahead of the rear portion of the powder column. I believe this is related to a SEE event. Does black powder carry that same risk or does it all instantly burn regardless of ignition point in powder column?

As an example imagine you had a 60 grains of black powder loaded in a barrel and it occupied three inches of the barrel length measured up from breech face. If the touch hole was 2 inches from breech face would that cause a dangerous secondary type explosion effect? How far up the powder column load could a touch hole be safely located?

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[arakboss]

One more question regarding pressure. If a specific load created 15,000 PSI, does that 15,000 PSI exist throughout the entire travel of projectile from breech to leaving the muzzle or does the pressure fall as the projectile travels down the barrel? Lastly How much pressure is bled out through the touch hole, 1%, 5%, more?

 

[Mark W.]

BP does not burn it explodes you need to have the BP compressed BP Cartridge shooters do this with wadding and or packing stuff like corn meal on top of the powder column. Read up on BP cartridge shooting. You will also note there are almost NO necked BP cartridges. They are all straight or slightly tapered for a reason.

 

[arakboss]

BP does not burn it explodes you need to have the BP compressed BP Cartridge shooters do this with wadding and or packing stuff like corn meal on top of the powder column. Read up on BP cartridge shooting. You will also note there are almost NO necked BP cartridges. They are all straight or slightly tapered for a reason.

So it shouldn't matter where in the BP column the ignition starts as it will all explode at the same time, correct?

Edit: To clarify, my question here pertains to black powder loaded directly in a barrel not in a cartridge.

 

[arakboss]

Here is a kindergarten level drawing to illustrate my question about where touch hole can be located and still be safe.




A typical muzzleloader is going to have the touch hole located near position #1 in the drawing. My question is, can the touch hole be safely located at position number #2 or position #3?

If not, why not?

 

[YippeeKiYoRed]

There is a load-development program for the PC called QuickLoad. I have not used it myself. I did a quick search and it seems there is some level of support for blackpowder loads. I doubt it supports comparing different touch hole placements. But it might answer your question on pressure curves. BP doesn't really depend on ambient pressure to burn fast so I would not be surprised if the pressure curve for BP is substantially different from smokeless rifle powder.

 

[arakboss]

Here is answer I received from a youtuber who builds his own black powder firearms including forging his own barrels.

yes, instead of burning powder from the back-forcing everything forward, if you started in the middle (or front) of the column it will be trying to push back against the breech plug (more) and forward on the ball, causing unnecessary stress. Also, it would put you at risk for not being able to set off a smaller powder charge, because you can cover up the touch hole with the patch or ball.

This makes it sound like BP burns more like smokeless which I know is not the case. So if a BP column ignites all at once, it seems like it wouldn't matter where the ignition started? His second point is legit about a short load of powder causing the touch hole to miss the powder column.

 

[Will_White]

Here is answer I received from a youtuber who builds his own black powder firearms including forging his own barrels.

yes, instead of burning powder from the back-forcing everything forward, if you started in the middle (or front) of the column it will be trying to push back against the breech plug (more) and forward on the ball, causing unnecessary stress. Also, it would put you at risk for not being able to set off a smaller powder charge, because you can cover up the touch hole with the patch or ball.

This makes it sound like BP burns more like smokeless which I know is not the case. So if a BP column ignites all at once, it seems like it wouldn't matter where the ignition started? His second point is legit about a short load of powder causing the touch hole to miss the powder column.

It doesn't burn all at once, some doesn't even burn at all, the flame front still has to propagate through the full powder column, the blackpowder substitute pellets might burn faster but I don't have any experience with them.

 

[arakboss]

It doesn't burn all at once, some doesn't even burn at all, the flame front still has to propagate through the full powder column, the blackpowder substitute pellets might burn faster but I don't have any experience with them.

Thanks.

 

[tac]

The .577-450 Martini-Henry cartridge was heavily-necked, AND black powder. The charge was dropped in, and THEN the case was necked. Same for the original .303 British, with its paper-patched lead bullet.

And the Vetterli and Vitali, AND the Dutch Beaumont.........all necked and BP.