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Black Gun type optics

Discussion in 'Gear & Accessories' started by Daft Willy, Apr 27, 2011.

  1. Daft Willy

    Daft Willy Northwest, where teeth and shoes are optional New Member

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    I am shopping for my first tactical type gun, which is it's own batch of fun. While shopping I realized that the technology in optics has grown by leaps and bounds. While I keep up with traditional scope technology and am a life long hand gun owern this area of electronic sights has exploded, I missed the memo.

    I am trying to select a sight for a flat top 7.62 nato weapon. Use would be mostly 200 yards or under, more like 50 to 100 with 200 or more in a pinch. My eye sight is outstanding. Being a little old school I want something that will still work if the batteries fail, or useable iron sights.

    I don't have a good grasp of the basic choices, nor of the benefits of each technology branch. I'm good for 300-500 and in no rush to purchase it.

    Thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated; thanks in advance.
     
  2. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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  3. caden08

    caden08 washougal Member

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    In that price range you could get an aimpoint or eotech. Depending on your front sights you may want 1 or the other. As for back up sights I kept my front sight base and purchased a GG&G rear flip up buis. Love my choice! A simple search of flip up buis will help. They usualy are in the $90-130 range. As for aimpoint they range from 400-600 and eotechs 350-600. Obviously you can find a nice used one here for a in the lower end of that price jacket...


    There are plenty of knock offs and look alike so do a little research before buying used optics.

    Hope this helps!
     
  4. stmcelroy

    stmcelroy Madras, OR Well-Known Member

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    I'd get a Aimpoint ML3 and BUIS. I know it is has batteries, but they last a long time and you would then have back up sights just in case.
     
  5. lmmmmm

    lmmmmm Seattle Member

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    Have you decided whether you want a red dot sight or traditional powered scope.

    Red dots w/o magnification allow very quick acquisition and field of view but would be tough to use at 200 yds. You can buy a magnifier for them. Or get a variable power traditional scope such as a 1x4 that will give you close range and middle distance range.

    Choose your price range and then start thinking about what type of shooting you will be doing and find the scope that best fits that role.
     
  6. Daft Willy

    Daft Willy Northwest, where teeth and shoes are optional New Member

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    I have seen red dot and the tubular scopes, but not used them more than a few shots from a friend. Very little use. Several folks have mentioned back up sights; does this mean that the flat top rail has front and rear sights on it, are these things that 'flip up' when the battery gizmo stops working?

    On a red dot vs tubular question. I would guess, based on near zero expirience, that I would prefer a red dot scope, especially if they can be ordered with a 'flip in place' type 4X magnifier. I'm guessing that with a 4X, good eyes and a few hundred rounds that hitting things at a known distance like 200 yards would be fairly easy.

    What do the tube scopes offer to counter the wide field of view offered by the red dot scopes?
     
  7. Daft Willy

    Daft Willy Northwest, where teeth and shoes are optional New Member

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    The wide field of view seems to be a rather important aspect to the purpose of what these type of weapons do best.
     
  8. eldbillbo

    eldbillbo clackamas New world samurai and a redneck none the less Bronze Supporter

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    I have this set up on mine. Its a Aimpoint Comp M3 I also have a flip to side 5x when i need magnification not to pimp it but its listed in the classifieds because now with the the Larue spr mounts i can get rid of my swan sleve and extend a scope back over my cut carry handle, so i am going to a 1x4 red dot like NwCid has my first choice was a TR24 or Metopa but decided on the Vortex from what i read about it that has the etched glass in case of battery failure. Not that i have never heard of any Aimpoints taking a dump and this has 5.7 year battery life if left on the lowest setting, but like you mentioned i also like the idea of a etched glass back up . as you can see on my swan sleve there is a back up iron sight you just flip the lever and the rear sight pops up, these can be bought all over the place without the extended rail like mine has my front sight also flips down out the way as well. There are so many optic options out there today its so hard to decide , I personally look for durability thats why i originally chose the Aimpoint, Acogs are said to be some of the toughest optics as well and they glow and don't require batteries and also have etched glass but will probably cost more than your rifle. . I am really found of the 1x feature but my eyes just are not what they used to be for small targets so i need some magnification most of the time now.



    Naturally this optics wound not set this high on any regular ar15 its the swan sleve i have that sets them up high another reason i am selling them
    DSC02469.jpg
    DSC02471.jpg
    DSC02473.jpg
     
  9. Daft Willy

    Daft Willy Northwest, where teeth and shoes are optional New Member

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    What are the flat sights called, as a type of sight? The ones with a red dot and a piece of glass you look through. The pictures so far seem to be tubular, not that this is a problem but I'm still not clear on why one over the other.

    Seems like I want a set of flip up sights with a quick release mount for the sight; that would solve my paranoia over technology failure. I'm well good with iron sights. Anything I should know about that combo or in general. Seems like a theme might be to keep the sight line as low to the rail as possible...

    Thanks for all the wonderful advice to date folks; I really appreciate it.
     
  10. eldbillbo

    eldbillbo clackamas New world samurai and a redneck none the less Bronze Supporter

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    you sound like you looking for a holosight or reflex

    just google reflex or holosight all kinds of information out there. narrow it down search reviews

    I would suggest something like a eotech that has a shield over the sight that protects it.
    I had a unshielded type holosight and the glass busted when the rifle i had leaning up against my work bench and it slid and hit on the sight.
     
  11. lmmmmm

    lmmmmm Seattle Member

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    Not sure why you are overly worried about a technology failure. In an eotech using AA battery those will last thousands of hours. You have a greater chance of your rifle failing before your scope.

    The height of your sight is a personal choice. But, if you co-witness your iron sight with your scope you wont need to take off the scope in case of a failure. You can keep shooting with your iron sight co-witnessed in your scope.
     
  12. Samurai

    Samurai Monroe, Wa. Member

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    These are broad generalizations, until you find out what works better for you.
    It's a popular choice to use sights in the same plane as your optic, called co-witnessing, so that the muscle memory you train will apply to both sighting systems should you suddenly have to change.
    For fast target acquisition at closer ranges, holographic dot sights will consistently beat out anything with parallax, like the 1-4x scopes, but this is measured in seconds if at all. The holographic sights are more forgiving in terms of eye relief and head position, the scopes will take some getting used to, especially some brands that have more sensitive eye relief.
    For more general purpose, the 1-4 powered scopes give you the cross over of relatively fast sight acquisition at close ranges, and the ability to zoom in for target ID and more precise shooting.
    I like this red dot for close range, fast stuff on my lightweight AR:
    Product singleview
    If I were looking for a 1-4x I would want this:
    SWFA SS 1-4x24 Tactical 30mm Riflescope
    Read the reviews on that SWFA. I know it's a little higher than what you posted, but I think it's worth the premium. It has a lot of features that you could grow into.

    Just some options,
    Jason
     
  13. Daft Willy

    Daft Willy Northwest, where teeth and shoes are optional New Member

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    I am so thankful for all your thoughts and opinions. I think the small profile is more of what I'm looking for. I believe most folks who practice a little should be consistant at 50 yards with a 1X red dot scope. I found a smaller scope with 3X magnifier, Eotech Gen II 3X. Sounds kind of nice but makes me think clunky and one more thing to train with; and one more thing to break. Nothing against the company just wish I had more time behind and feeling for a 1X vs a 3X for field of view.

    The hunting process is much different than how a close quarters weapon is used. Much more like using hand guns (which I have trained with).

    I am wondering how folks deal with distance. Most shooting seems to be under 50 yards when I'm doing it for fun; much less walking. Do most folks use known distances and futz with the elevation knobs or just train for stand off from the red dots? My gut feeling is I am much more likely to go with stand off for anything under 200 yards than get a distance, crank the knobs, and shoot...
     
  14. Daft Willy

    Daft Willy Northwest, where teeth and shoes are optional New Member

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    Eldbilbo, a question on your rocking weapon. I love the thought of a flip and get some magnification; but get back to more things to get in the way and stuff to break... how does it work if you are shooting at medium distance, say 50 to 150 yards? Do you put it up, and back down a few times? does the 5X shake with the shots when flipped? Does it take a lot of training to know at what distance you want which optic??
     
  15. The Cheese

    The Cheese somewhere special Member

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    After having a few aimpoint and eotech type sights, I have settled on the 1-4x optics. For me they give me maximum versatility and are not dependent on batteries (even though mine do have illumination). I will say that being able to dial up 4x mag or just keeping it on 2.5 has helped me make hits more consistently and more quick like. on 1x they are still pretty darn quick. Not quite as quick as a dot, but close enough that I can deal with it. On a 308 gun, I would want to at least be able to go to 4x on magnification. Other wise, in my mind, you are really limiting yourself with the gun. There maybe a time when you want to try your hand at 4-500yds, and the dot, even with a magnifier, will leave you wanting.

    IF you want a cheap dot to try out and see if you like it, check out primary arms. You can get an aimpoint micro clone from them for around $70 and then once you figure out if you like it or not you can sell it for $5-10 less than what you paid and get something bigger and/or better. And they are decent optics that work pretty good and are backed up by PA. Not a bad way to try before you buy something more expensive. Or just keep it for your 22 plinker. for a 1-4x under $500 I would get the Vortex hands down. Best bang for the buck.

    As for you question about using the knobs on red dots. Its kind of a set it for a certain range and leave it alone thing. Use your hold over and kentucky windage to make your hits. Most dots you have to use a coin to turn the adjustment screws, and thats after you have taken off the dust caps.
     
  16. Rammit

    Rammit Bothel Member

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    You might be able to find an ACOG for that price used, I had an eotech, Hated it. I shot just a good with Iron sights, I like to have a little magnification, 4X is about right, plus they have those little back up sights on the top. For me 3-9 would be ideal, and then a set of sights canted off to the side for close encounters
     
  17. eldbillbo

    eldbillbo clackamas New world samurai and a redneck none the less Bronze Supporter

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    On the weapon that its pictured on it looks and feels bulky but when i have had it mounted on a regular upper without the riser used on the one pictured its not so bulky . Basically for me when i want to do precise shooting small groups on paper or smaller targets or longer ranges i use the magnifier when i am hitting bigger targets like spinners i use the red dot . I have not used the set all that much as its on my secondary rifle i do practice with it though using the flip to side. its a larue so there is not wobble its rock solid and they call it a quick flip for a reason... it quick think wax on wax off . if your looking down range and the target is just a little too hard to put the dot on a quick flip and there it is . they make clone flip units there are good to use to try it out before you spend the big bucks and i do have a clone as well and there is some wobble in it however the dot does not wobble so its always where it needs to be. I understand what you are saying about it looking a tad fragile sticking out like that . there is always the possibilty of of falling on the magnifer and breaking it or the mount but it would take something like that to do that . The aimpoint on the other hand is a pretty tough unit . from my reading there can withstand more abuse than most if not all the magnified scopes on the market at least anything under $1000

    also not all magnifers are as big as the one i have pictured its just the only one that i know of at this time that is 5x everything else so far is a 3x . 3x is fine but when i need magnification i need magnification and 3x is just not enough for me

    but many companies are making 3x and they are smaller more compact . but with mounts like the laure you can push a trow lever and remove it when you don't think you need it . and when its flipped to the side it really does not obstruct much that i would be seeing in its place anyway so its a nice set up. but i do believe that the 1-4 scopes are going to take over . I don't know if any of the lower price under $1000 are going to be in the ball park of durability of the Aimpoint but they seem to be a do all in one package

    thing is though if you have really good eyesight a magnifier may not be something you need at the moment and would be a add on later but it all depends on the size and distance of the targets your shooting at. Many guys are still happy with just their irons.
     
  18. John Gault

    John Gault clackamas county Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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  19. Blackbird

    Blackbird Hillsboro Member

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    I also run the Vortex Viper PST 1-4 Scope with the MOA recticle on a AR-15. I have mine mounted on a American Defense quick detatch mount. The American Defense mount is the same mount as the Vortex branded mount and is a little cheaper. The scope is excellent quality as is the mount. IMHO it is just as good if not a little better than some of the other 1-4 scopes in the $800-$900 price range.