Discussion in 'Defensive Carry & Self Defense' started by ZigZagZeke, Oct 30, 2015.
giving someone respect.... Remember when people used to do that?
I would've taken the ticket and told him to keep his grubby paws of my bubblegum. The point where the officer violated his 4th amendment rights, he no longer deserved respect.
Traffic infractions are not crimes so no RC to disarm him and undoubtedly run the numbers on the gun.
Courts have ruled its legal for the cops to disarm for safety while contacting someone. See the Terry decision for a start on that. Honestly being a douche during a stop does you no good, and the courts have already upheld the constitutionality of such actions.
The point where you tell a cop to kerp his paws off your "bubblegum" - is the point where a traffic infraction will probably turn into a whole lot more. Want to minimize contact with cops? Don't be a dick to them during said contacts. You have a right ro be a dick. Just like open carrying an AR15 outside a school is legal - it doesn't make it correct or reasonable and will likely lead to longer more invasive contact with government officials.
Respect is a two way street as is courtesy. Me me me gets one only so far.
I have been stopped in my vehiclesaybe half a dozen times in the 19 years I have been driving. I have had exactly two tickets during all that time - and one was so egregious a violation the cop said he had no choice but to ticket since I was doing 26 over in a work zone. I didnt argue didnt get nasty admitted fault and went on with my life. Cop was cool.
Other was a seatbelt ticket.
Been contacted few other times by fish cops or in relation to other incidents - never been asked to disarm but wouldn't have objected anyway. They are temporary contacts. If the cop feels more at ease for 5 minutes hes dealing with me - thats fine. Im less likely to get shot by him during those 5 minutes.
Cops are humans behind that badge. Some are dicks some are not. Some turn into dicks when you give them static.
Its not like they were conducting an illegal stop, or an illegal search, or trying to confiscate his gun. Guy handled the traffic stop exactly how he should have and walked away with no ticket and no extra holes, and did so under his own power.
Theres a time and place to be captain constitutionalist and thump your pocket constitution and refuse a government agents requests or demands but 99% of traffic stops are not that time.
What would a reasonable person percieve as reasonable behavior on the parts of all parties be?
A "terry" stop requires articuable and reasonable suspicions that a crime was committed.
Give respect, get respect. I have yet to have any issues when I have LEO contact while having a concealed firearm on my body/car/bag/etc.
Violations can also trigger a search under Terry. The cops had a legal right to stop him - at that point they also have the legal right to see if the person is armed and disarm them for the duration of the stop. It doesn't require conscent nor does it require a crime be committed vs a violation.
Not every encounter with law enforcement needs to be a pissing contest.
I've been pulled over twice while carrying. I've never been disarmed, but I'm a respectful citizen and I've never given them a reason to treat me otherwise. I can't say I've encountered any a-hole cops at a traffic stop. And each time I've been stopped, it was legitimate - either speeding or a headlight out. I don't really see a reason to be standoffish with a cop during a traffic stop. I just can't see how that is going to go well in the end.
I drive too fast, when I safely can, one of my last vices as I age. In every encounter whether armed or not, I try to have both my licenses out, and both my hands out the window prior to the officer getting out of his vehicle. Sadly, I have gotten good at this over the years, 25 of them carrying in 3 states.
Only once has an officer not thanked me for doing so, the one time was an officer who asked right off the bat "Why the F*** are your hands out the window" Once he saw my carry permit, he backed off and went about his business gruffly but professionally.
I have never been disarmed, I have also never not had all the proper documents available and up to date.
I am not armed during my commute 3 days a week, I work in a hospital, so I drive to work and home, do not stop. Only been pulled over once unarmed, did the same thing I always do. Portland Police Officer was quite nice, saw the USAA insurance, asked about my service, and gave me a warning.
I understand people feel pushed to their limits regarding constitutional rights, but I agree these encounters are not the time and place. My choice on proceeding with life. Everyone gets to make their own decisions, and accept the consequences.
Good luck out there everyone, remember we all swim in the same pool...
I've been asked in the past, I'm pretty sure.. back when I was a young conservative and thought cops had authority over me and ought to be able to ask me personal bubblegum. Been a long time since I've even been asked, though... I think most are just over it and don't really give a bubblegum these days. At least around here. I don't announce, they don't ask. Caught off guard, I'd probably just cop to it if I was asked and was carrying, if I'm being realistic... but I'd like to think my response would be a smile and a "well, officer, that's a very personal question - let's just keep this professional, please" with a friendly chiding tone.
Don't mess with mama or the cops cuz even if yous right, they gonna make you have a bad day/week/month/year.
I have way more experience then just about anyone I have ever met. I have 54 enteries/tickets on my driving record from driving without my head lights to careless driving (I did a lot of cruising the gut when I was in my 20's. I am currently a CDL Dump truck driver and spent 5 years driving school bus before that. Some jobs we work I talk to law enforcement almost every day (mostly ODOT officers but sometimes County Sheriffs or city police running truck scales and inspections).
I have always found that being polite and calm when talking to the law works wonders. Even when the little A hole was handing me a ticket for going 8 miles an hour faster then the limiter on the dump truck would ever allow (ok so that time I did call him a liar in court). Or when I got a careless driving ticket (a traffic crime at the time) when a UPS triple trailer driver said I tried to force his truck off the road 10 miles back with my 375lb motorcycle after he pulled up when a cop was giving me a ticket for going 60 on the freeway.
At least a half dozen of those stops I was legally carrying and about the same number of times I had handguns in my car before I had a permit. Once I even got the officer to take my boom box and black powder revolver/holster rig with us as he took me to jail for a bench warrant (failure to pay). They locked it up the evidence room and on Monday when I could return they handed it back to me. Had it been left in my car over the weekend I have no doubt both would have been stolen.
Be nice Be polite and then when your free and clear think of them what ever you will.
Well, a broken headlight isn't probable cause to search a vehicle. Driving wildly would be though.
I've never liked this mentality. Cops supposedly work for the people, sure, if the the person is being a dickwad, the cop can go ahead and treat accordingly. I've never groveled to cops by saying "oh yes SIR," I've just treated them like some regular dude and things have been more than ok. On another note, a friend and I (I was passenger) were pulled over while hunting during our drive between two hunting spots. He pulled us over for "crossing the line (on a dirt and gravel road full of potholes)," so that reason was a bunch of hooey and was annoying to say the least. I was in the passenger seat basically hugging my .338 and the trooper didn't seem to care at all. He didn't even mention it. No ticket, no warning, it was obviously just a "I haven't seen anyone all day, I'll pull these guys over just because." To make things more absurd, the same guy pulled us over the next day on our way home. He was going the opposite direction, we were cruising along nicely, then all of a sudden he was right behind us meaning he turned around and floored it to catch up. He pulled us over and acted surprised to see us again. He never gave us a reason for being pulled over. My friend cheekily said "you know, we never crossed any line back there" in a joking way. The trooper made this funny "oh no these guys are onto my BS look" smiled, and said good evening.
Some might argue that the inability of men today to deal with one another in a professional manner without attributing it to "groveling" is a symptom of a bigger problem.
Because someone "works for the people" they are somehow ineligible, in terms of receiving respect or common courtesy?
Well that's certainly a twisting of words. I treat people as people, I refuse to sit there and say yes/no sir to anyone. I'd advise against using that kind of language with people in positions of power like this. Too many feed off of it. The motivations of people in general can be quite odd. Be friendly, be polite, keep it as normal as possible. It's much harder to have a conversation between two relate-able individuals when there is the use of such language. By all means, do what you want.
I call the kid taking my order at Mcdonalds Sir, if he is doing his job well and politely.
Why should it matter if a person has or does not have power over you. That's kind of my point. Being professional, respectful, courteous etc. These things should never be associated with groveling or submission, in my opinion, but to each their own I suppose.
I really don't think we're disagreeing in concept, but I'm just more somewhat jaded...
fair enough man, to each his own. I wasn't trying to be antagonistic, I apologize if it came across that way, it's early and I have my grouchy pants on.
We're good, sometimes my writing itself isn't always interpreted as intended due to the nature of writing lacking the tone and inflection of speech. So it could've been either. Point is neither of us are antagonistic to cops/others and ultimately want the same thing.
Crime | Define Crime at Dictionary.com
an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.
Separate names with a comma.