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BEWARE of NFA issues with GSG-5

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Keane, Apr 19, 2009.

  1. Keane

    Keane Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    Hi all, I'm sorry if this is the wrong place for this, it didn't fit into handguns or rifles (for obvious reasons).

    I picked up a GSG-5 with the 3 weaver rail tac grip at the gunshow today (the rifle version with the fake can), and have been doing some research. In my research, I have found many people who are in potential huge legal trouble based on some of the customizations I've seen. There are issues with both the rifle, and the 'pistol' versions that I'll post below.

    Rifle version:-- DO Not install the 'non' stock version of the stock, it puts it below the 26" minimum length for a rifle. Also, you may wish to keep an eye out if you have a collapsible or folding stock. The measurement is done according to ATF with the stock extended fully, however this is not 'law', it is the ATF's idea of the law.

    Long story short: Just do not install the rear-end of the GSG-5 PK, otherwise you don't get the overall length correctly.

    Pistol Version:
    There are a ton more issues with the pistol version that will get you in trouble real quick.
    1- DO NOT install a Vertical Fore-grip. By installing one of these, you make the pistol a 'rifle', which because of the short barrel, makes it an AOW and requires a $200 tax stamp.
    2- The same applies with installing a stock to the PK. If you install a stock, it is considered a rifle, and thus, an SBR.
    3- If you EVER install either of these items, your GSG is no longer a pistol. ATF has a 'once a rifle, always a rifle' policy, thus if you install either of these, you are basically screwed legally. Best bet is to remove them, get rid of them (to avoid constructive possession) and pretend you never owned them :)
    Interesting point to this: because it has a stock, I think the GSG-5 A (PK barrel with a stock) is not legal according to the NFA as far as I can tell.

    In my research, I think I am correct on all these points, but they are definitely up for discussion.

    I really don't want to see anyone here get in trouble because of foolish NFA stuff.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2009
  2. rdb241

    rdb241 Puyallup Washington Gold Supporter Gold Supporter

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    The same issue of the pistol and the vertical fore grip is the same issue back in the early 90's with the SP89 and the MP5K foregrip and the choate folding stock. That rule has been around for a long time. There is a company that makes a rubber sleeve that fits over an AK mag with finger grooves and it comes with a letter from the ATF stating that it is NOT considered a permanent grip becuase the mag detatches.
     
  3. Keane

    Keane Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    Yep, none of this stuff is anything 'new', just with the recent rash of GSG sales I've seen, i wanted to make sure everyone got a reminder.
     
  4. coctailer

    coctailer Portland, OR/Hastings, MI/Vancouver,WA I run with scissors.

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    Thanks for pointing this out.

    Correction: Installing the vertical fore-grip makes the GSG-5 (or any pistol) an AOW.
     
  5. bnr32gtr

    bnr32gtr Vancouver, WA Member

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    Damn, coctailer said it as I was typing my long reply. Here it is anyhow:

    Keane, thanks for giving folks a head up but your number one point is incorrect. By installing a vertical foregrip on a pistol, you are creating an AOW(Any Other Weapon), not and SBR(Short Barreled Rifle). Both cost $200 for the tax stamp if you do it yourself, but if your SOT does it for you, the transfer fee is only $5.

    This is not the case for an SBR. The tax is $200 if you do it, or if and SOT does the conversion.

    Another big difference is the fact that a WA resident can, after filing the proper paper work, back ground check, $200 ATF tax stamp, etc. can have an AOW, while an SBR is not allowed by WA state law to private citizens.

    In Oregon, you folks can have either but by getting an SBR, this allows for a vertical foregrip to be installed and is covered by the SBR tax.

    I hope this helps and thanks again for putting this out there. I am not an expert and do not quote me as I am not legal counsel. I've just spent some time hanging out and shooting with several SOT friends and have picked up a "few" bits of knowledge. :thumbup:

    If anyone has any questions regarding this, please contact the ATF at www.atf.gov
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2009
  6. coctailer

    coctailer Portland, OR/Hastings, MI/Vancouver,WA I run with scissors.

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    Bnlettersandnumbers was too slow:laugh::laugh:
     
  7. bnr32gtr

    bnr32gtr Vancouver, WA Member

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    I'm never going to live this down, am I?! :laugh:

    Maybe I'll PM Joey and petition for a name change... :thumbup:
     
  8. Keane

    Keane Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    Ah, you guys are 100% correct, I knew that... I dont know why I was thinking SBR.

    Anyway, thanks for pointing that out, with the 'customization' that the GSG seems to get, it seems like it would be very easy for people to accidentially get into NFA problems.
     
  9. spider

    spider Hillsboro Well-Known Member

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    Yeah reminds me of the day I got my Tec-9 AB-10 and put a clip on foregrip, I took it off about 4 minutes of looking at the gun and realized it was illegal.
     
  10. OreGunSun

    OreGunSun PDX/Clackamas Member

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    Not quite sure how the BA TFE would classify this but it does have a quick release lever - Prolly not a good idea to keep it attached at all times - I am not sure how it would be classifed as it is more in fashion of a AK Handguard.

    I don't know if I would use it or not? I am unsure if it is a grey area or not - I have rifles with rails - but I suppose that it or a flashlight could attach to a Glock or a Springfield XD.


    Hmm I wonder how they would classify these? a Glock with a fore- Mag holder

    Or for the True Mall-Ninja the Fore-Glock ( Yes these are real Items.

    This is the Ultimate Mall Ninja /Bubba/J.C.Whitney accessory lottery winner. (As well as a BA*TFE enforcement jackpot) Glock 'n' Roll (all that is missing is the Glock hammer cocking mechanism



    But in all Seriousness - This might be the safest - It is fairly functional as a foregrip ( Not 100%) but far better nothing to control the front of a "Long Pistol" - It is a springfield flashlight holder that was about $12 - But note : The bottom of the flashlight holder also has a 1913 rail. I bet that a QD Stubby might even fit on it ;) - but I would want a rifle with rails in my household along with the stubby. P1010057.jpg
     
  11. bnr32gtr

    bnr32gtr Vancouver, WA Member

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    The Glock magazine mount is not legal. The ATF does not care if it offers more ammo, convenient storage, temporary or permanent. It is a forward grip that breaks their rules, based on "a pistol being designed to be fired with one hand".

    Not sure about all of you, but I use both hands when shooting a pistol! An SOT friend in the Bellevue area once said this to me: "If you have to ask, it is probably considered illegal by the ATF". I could not agree more. That's why posting photos of a creation going "neener, neener" to the ATF is not a good idea. That's what gets lots of folks in trouble.

    Back to the item at hand: Keane has a great idea with this thread. It is very easy to get confused with all the rules and make a mistake. Just be careful of what you do and don't post pics/videos if you are not sure! :thumbup:
     
  12. OreGunSun

    OreGunSun PDX/Clackamas Member

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    Yeah nonoe of the photos are mine=-just borrowed from the World wide. Yeah it is alway wisdom to let sleeping dogs....and not:poke:

    But it is funny I never thought about the 1-hand - I shoot all of my handguns 2-handed - their are only a small class of handguns that I can think off that can only be fired one handed ( Derringers and a lot of the 1, 2, and like the NAA 6 shot .22lr -slips my mind the name that you can only get one hand around.

    And on the other hand (sorry couldn't resist the pun) we have the hand cannon's that are so heavy or long unless you have Popeye forearms and Rocky's Bi's, Tri's and Delts your going to struggle one handed - Thier are some old wheel guns that they used to perch over the left forearm ( at least in the movies).

    The only item I have is the Springfield Flashlight holder that slides on the bottom rail of the XD's and Glock's it looks like the one on the bottom of the quad rail in the last photo. - but I don't think that I would want to use it as a grip that close to the end of a HG muzzle.

    I guess prevailing wisdom is if in doubt get a letter from the AFT or do without.