Poll: Better over all protection 870 or ar-15

[gunnoob75]

5.56 SS109 has the same penetration as hot loaded hard cast 12 GA shotgun slugs. I have tested them both myself

You mean that a specific bullet, that was designed to PENETRATE BARRIERS, penetrates barriers!?

Still don't really believe you, though. I am not saying that it does not/could not; But I am saying that your method of testing was probably not very.. Objective. "Well, this one penetrated drywall!" "This one too!"

I'll be sure to inform the nations leading ballistic analysts that the "NWFA Experts" have proved their test results and corresponding reports to be incorrect.

 

[lst1166]

I havent seen a bayo on a 12 gauge yet. A Bayo offers a secondary if you run into a malfunction.

 

[Marz]

Mossberg 590

 

[Blitzkrieg]

You mean that a specific bullet, that was designed to PENETRATE BARRIERS, penetrates barriers!?

Still don't really believe you, though. I am not saying that it does not/could not; But I am saying that your method of testing was probably not very.. Objective. "Well, this one penetrated drywall!" "This one too!"

I'll be sure to inform the nations leading ballistic analysts that the "NWFA Experts" have proved their test results and corresponding reports to be incorrect.

Steel sheetmetal is a very good medium to test relative penetration

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I havent seen a bayo on a 12 gauge yet. A Bayo offers a secondary if you run into a malfunction.

The 1897 Trench Gun 12 GA had a bayonet mount that took the sword bayonet of the US military rifle of the day..some adaptors exist today and I am about to make a custom one for my FN SLP MK 1

 

[Boats]

I havent seen a bayo on a 12 gauge yet. A Bayo offers a secondary if you run into a malfunction.

From page 2 of this very thread:

 

[Trailboss]

Keep in mind that the though the OP has asked a question about which of two firearms would offer better protection, the question doesn't restrict one from considering other defense options for each of our personal situations. Though I have both of the firearms mentioned available to me, I remain aware that at close quarters, a good knife or well practiced pistol are very effective defense choices. We each will need to assess and respond in a way that reduces potential risk to innocents, while still meeting the threat with an appropriate response.

 

[Burt Gummer]

I take the safety of innocent people; neighbors, passersby; very seriously. To that end in regards to the AR15 scenario I ordered a three boxes of Extreme Shock ammo. Loaded up in a couple 30r mags. Just knowing that if I ever have to use an AR for close in/inside home defense that it is just me and the bad guy in peril is worth it. Odds of that ever being the case .00001%, but I spend a lot on stupid stuff might as well have some AR/HD piece of mind.

 

[billstaf]

This is a good question. I sure don't know the answer, but I have a high-end AR-15 AND a 20" HD 870 in my collection of guns. Personally, I would grab my 870 if I had intruders inside the house. I keep the mag loaded with #4buck with the last 2 rounds #00buck. Plenty of pistols on hand for back-up too.

For defense at greater distances, I'll take my AR. With scope and bi-pod it can reach out a ways. NOTE: AR make does matter: Some of the cheapies or piecework guns can be jam-o-matics. If you are looking at an AR, spend as much as you can and get the best gun you can afford. There are plenty of great AR makers to choose from.

 

[mortre]

Sense I believe the OP is talking survival/SHTF scenario and not home defense...

I will narrow it down to a Survival issue, Not so much home defense but possible depending if you are "bugging out" or " bugging in"

I have to go with AR-15. Range limitation and the bulk and weight of shotgun shells makes it a non-starter for bugging out.

While a shotgun is about perfect in it's niche, it starts falling short quickly outside of that niche. It takes fairly open chokes to get decent patterns out of buckshot in my experience, and open chokes won't bag you much small game out past pistol range. Even with iron sites the average shooter should be capable of hitting a rabbit in the head or barking a squirrel well beyond the range of a Cyl or IMP Cyl bore shotgun. 223 is capable for deer size game using 60-65 grain soft point bullets, and you can find factory seconds for $10 or so per hundred if you reload.

AR-15's being high maintenance is more internet commando myth than truth. Even a cheaper Olyarms AR-15 is perfectly capable of running well with minimal love and care.

 

[retiredgal]

Lawyers love powerful loads and cartridges that are hard to stop.
Remember, you are responsible for every thing that you fire from your gun. Aim, stop them, and quit shooting! Be smart, not emotional. Rambo is a movie.

Civil unrest and street fighting? Another set of rules and weapon needs. Be flexible and think!

 

[Burt Gummer]

Lawyers love powerful loads and cartridges that are hard to stop.
Remember, you are responsible for every thing that you fire from your gun. Aim, stop them, and quit shooting! Be smart, not emotional. Rambo is a movie.

Civil unrest and street fighting? Another set of rules and weapon needs. Be flexible and think!

... but so many have a hard on to kill someone given any excuse. Killing another person is the last thing I want to do in my life. If my life is seriously in jeopardy or someone I need to protect I will do it in a heartbeat. Admitted, I have guns because I love guns. When I go to the range and plink away all my troubles fade away. Some people get that with golf. I get it at 2100 fps. Geezus, they are so much fun.

I don't fantasize about killing someone though. Those who do, to each their own.

 

[Kevatc]

For defense at greater distances, I'll take my AR. With scope and bi-pod it can reach out a ways. NOTE: AR make does matter: Some of the cheapies or piecework guns can be jam-o-matics. If you are looking at an AR, spend as much as you can and get the best gun you can afford. There are plenty of great AR makers to choose from.

Bipod and scope for self defense??????????? I guess I must be thick in the skull because I don't get this.

Cheap AR's being "jam-o-matics" .... personal experience or just something you've read on some other/s forums?????? Granted, my experience is just a very small anecdote but at an AR class I was in there were a couple AK's, a few upper end AR's (some supressed some not) and mostly the usual names in AR's. Unless we set up an intentional malfunction I don't remember anyone having any malfunctions and we shot right at a 1000 rounds over a weekend. I don't know about others in my class but the only maintenance I did on my AR was to slightly lube my bolt/BCG at the end of day one. BTW, mine is a Bushy with many thousands of rounds through her. She is as reliable as gravity.

 

[billstaf]

Bipod and scope for self defense??????????? I guess I must be thick in the skull because I don't get this.

Cheap AR's being "jam-o-matics" .... personal experience or just something you've read on some other/s forums?????? Granted, my experience is just a very small anecdote but at an AR class I was in there were a couple AK's, a few upper end AR's (some supressed some not) and mostly the usual names in AR's. Unless we set up an intentional malfunction I don't remember anyone having any malfunctions and we shot right at a 1000 rounds over a weekend. I don't know about others in my class but the only maintenance I did on my AR was to slightly lube my bolt/BCG at the end of day one. BTW, mine is a Bushy with many thousands of rounds through her. She is as reliable as gravity.

My first civilian AR was an Olympic Arms shortie. That thing was a jamming POS. I couldn't get though a single mag without some kind of stoppage. I unloaded that piece of junk quickly. In the interim I shot my brother's Bushmaster AR. It seemed like a decent enough rifle, but it did have a little jamming problem. Not all the time, but often enough when the gun was hot. Then I got myself a new Colt Sporter. Very nice medium priced rifle. Always performed well and I had no real complaints with it except for the fact that the bolt carrier area got routinely filthy after 100 rounds or so and needed a wash down. The Colt also got hot pretty quickly, but even then it never failed to fire or extract. Last year I decided to move away from DI and go with a piston gun. I traded my old Colt in for a new Ruger SR556. The Ruger is by far the best AR platform I've ever dealt with. It came with very nice Troy iron sights, but I also have a quick detach bi-pod and scope. Depending on the range involved, I would most certainly use my bi-pod and scope for self defense (or home defense) if the situation called for it. If that is hard to understand, I cannot help you. (I typed this as slow as I could).

 

[retiredgal]

Question:

In this thread, a lot of talk about AR's as if they are the only version of the .223/.556 variety of semi rifle? Am I misunderstanding something on this class of gun? I have a Ruger Mini-14 and it will do what the AR's do to the best of my knowledge except it doesn't have the same features. I love my mini and shoot 30 round mags and it has never jammed on me.
It is affordable also.

Sometimes I think gun ownership is more about "bragging rights " and spendy weapons for status?

Same with shotguns for home defense. Someone mentioned Mossberg above? I have a Chas. Dailey pump home defense shotgun and love it. Again, not a staus gun but effective and good quality for home defense. It will be as good if I had to defend my home as the famed 870 or any other classy shotgun.

My point is, depending on the circumstances as to what type of weapon is needed and when. Big names Colt and Remington are not the final word.

Hope this isn't construed as hi jacking the thread but a point I felt needed to be made. Self defense can be affordable and effective for the average home owner with lesser brands of guns.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I take the safety of innocent people; neighbors, passersby; very seriously. To that end in regards to the AR15 scenario I ordered a three boxes of Extreme Shock ammo. Loaded up in a couple 30r mags. Just knowing that if I ever have to use an AR for close in/inside home defense that it is just me and the bad guy in peril is worth it. Odds of that ever being the case .00001%, but I spend a lot on stupid stuff might as well have some AR/HD piece of mind.

Be aware that with an AR15 the POI is several inches lower than the iron sights at close range. This is due to the offset of the sights VS the bore

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Question:

In this thread, a lot of talk about AR's as if they are the only version of the .223/.556 variety of semi rifle? Am I misunderstanding something on this class of gun? I have a Ruger Mini-14 and it will do what the AR's do to the best of my knowledge except it doesn't have the same features. I love my mini and shoot 30 round mags and it has never jammed on me.
It is affordable also.

Sometimes I think gun ownership is more about "bragging rights " and spendy weapons for status?

Same with shotguns for home defense. Someone mentioned Mossberg above? I have a Chas. Dailey pump home defense shotgun and love it. Again, not a staus gun but effective and good quality for home defense. It will be as good if I had to defend my home as the famed 870 or any other classy shotgun.

My point is, depending on the circumstances as to what type of weapon is needed and when. Big names Colt and Remington are not the final word.

Hope this isn't construed as hi jacking the thread but a point I felt needed to be made. Self defense can be affordable and effective for the average home owner with lesser brands of guns.

New mini 14s have soared in price and they are very dependent on quality magazines. I say this as a guy who still owns 2 of them and still uses one as a daily rifle. I own several 5.56 rifles that are not Rugers, as well.. so it's a personal choice

 

[Trailboss]

New mini 14s have soared in price and they are very dependent on quality magazines.

The new Mini-14s are more expensive and do prefer the Ruger mags which cost more than typical AR-Mags, but I also find them an attractive choice. Reliable, simple, no tools takedown and quite accurate out of the box. I also really like a wood stock and find the Mini-14 looks less threatening but can deliver the goods when needed.

 

[mortre]

Be aware that with an AR15 the POI is several inches lower than the iron sights at close range. This is due to the offset of the sights VS the bore

You are right, but it can't be any lower than the distance between the center of sites and center of the bore. I believe that's ~2.5" with a carry handle. A 300 yard zero should have the POI and POA meet between 25 and 30 yards depending on load.

 

[Grunwald]

Wow! 6 pages in 2 years and not a single crack about best personal protection being made out of latex. You guys are too serious sometimes.