Poll: Better over all protection 870 or ar-15

[Spitpatch]

A short review of the original question, then a trip to the history books (because if we don't remember it, we are doomed to repeat it): Best overall protection?

Not so very long ago in this country, the average family on the frontier (let's say everything west of the Appalachians, and lots of country east of there) actually DID depend on a regular basis on firearms for "overall protection".

We've all heard the phrase, "Winchester! The Gun that Won the West!" Well, just about any firearms historian will tell you, "Not so fast with the Winchester accolades." Yes, the Winchester was the AR15 of the day. Rapid fire rifle: giving one man the firepower previously wielded by no less than ten men. Colt's revolver (The Peacemaker: the Glock of the day) might also be thought of as a winner for "overall protection" when it mattered most.

But ask any western historian/firearms buff what was the REAL champion gun of the west: the one that EVERYBODY depended on on a daily basis, not only for "overall protection", but to feed their families? None will dispute it was the shotgun. Practicality, effective killing power, able to score hits under pressure and time restraint with minimal skill practice to do so. Historically, during a time when "overall protection" was not just a speculative subject on a website, but a constant daily tangible concern, the shotgun was the answer.

It still is.

 

[jbett98]

The ultimate home defense.

 

[mjbskwim]

AR15.

5.56 loses velocity after going through walls a -lot- faster than any handgun/buckshot loads.

Repeat - It will not kill your neighbors from inside your home.

Sorry,you need to go back and do some math.
Plenty capable of killing a neighbor after going though a wall

 

[Z-PDX]

I also voted for the 870, esp for home protection. Open stance, both eyes wide-open... I don't know if those who voted for the AR have Red Dot's or some kind of CQ Scope, but I can't imagine having to square up and acquire the front post when the bad guys are say, in pistol range.

An AR is definitely a bigger investment than an 870. That said, a red-dot seems pretty ubiquitous on ARs nowadays.

Your experience with the AR platform may be different than mine, but even without a reddot sighting an AR at human sized targets is quite easy. At across the room, MOUT distances, standard CQB training is both eyes open and cover available COM with front sight. Pull trigger, repeat as needed.

Actually much easier than lining up pistol sights.

I am seeing this turning into a personal preference thing, which is not neccessarily bad.

 

[Z-PDX]

No question in my mind: the 870. For this very important reason (too often forgotten by those choosing a home defense weapon):

Fired inside your home, the 870 probably won't kill a neighbor.

The "Box o' Truth" may provide additional perspective...

The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls - Page 4

 

[deen_ad]

Close in, like in my house or RV I'll take the shotgun.

Wide open spaces at long rang I'll take the AR.

Since you never know..................I have both.

 

[gunnoob75]

Sorry,you need to go back and do some math.
Plenty capable of killing a neighbor after going though a wall

You need to read about some ballistics! Links incoming.

 

[mjbskwim]

You need to read about some ballistics! Links incoming.

Tell you what,you stand on the other side of a normal house wall and I'll send a 223/556 round your way..............Huh?
Then we'll see first hand what it will do.

 

[Kid@Heart]

Tell you what,you stand on the other side of a normal house wall and I'll send a 223/556 round your way..............Huh?
Then we'll see first hand what it will do.

Boys, boys, boys....

Play nice now.
:drink:

 

[mjbskwim]

Boys, boys, boys....

Play nice now.
:drink:

Kinda like the guy who says he wouldn't carry any caliber that doesn't start with a 4 and won't take a shot from said wimpy caliber.

Just sayin'

 

[gunnoob75]

8/23/11

As many of the previous posts note, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice for home defense.

From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons. Below are the wound profiles of unobstructed shots at 3 meters, comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:

Dr. G.K. Roberts

 

[gunnoob75]

Barriers and Structures
The Bureau's research also suggests that common household barriers such as wallboard, plywood, internal and external walls are also better attacked with pistol rounds, or larger caliber battle rifles, if the objective is to "dig out" or neutralize people employing such object as cover or concealment. Although it is usually not advisable to fire at targets you can't see in urban settings, it is done and some subjects have been stopped in this manner. Conversely, the ability of some pistol rounds to penetrate barriers tested puts innocent bystanders and fellow team members at greater risk in CQB scenarios. If an operator misses the intended target, the .223 will generally have less wounding potential than some pistol rounds after passing through a wall or similar structure. The close range penetration tests conducted indicated that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. When concrete, brick or macadam are struck at an angle at close range, .223 rounds tent to fragment or break up, and ricochets are generally less hazardous. The .223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments. In other words, in most shootings, the round would probably strike something, hopefully a hard object, break up and quickly end its potentially lethal odyssey.

R.K. Taubert

 

[gunnoob75]

"A" wall, sure.

How about a wall, and another wall, and some siding, and X distance, and more siding, and another wall, and another wall...

No need to be so aggressive, NWFA "Expert".

 

[Z-PDX]

Completely as an aside. Bob Taubert is a great guy. Very highly respected, experienced and knowledgable.

Nice guy as well....

 

[Kevatc]

The "Box 'o Truth" pretty much exposes a lot of the conventional wisdom about 5.56mm being used indoors as old wives tales. It doesn't matter if it is ball, or soft points, or JHPs, anything worth shooting at a human out of a 5.56mm rifle is going to penetrate multiple layers of drywall.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm

Even frangible, the stuff not intended for SD, penetrates drywall. Worse yet, 5.56 presents a bit of a huge problem for the self-defender.

Unlike common handgun rounds, 5.56 has a disturbing tendency to deviate from its aim point after striking drywall, to the point of total unpredictability as to the flight path.

In my mind, this causes 5.56 to violate one of the four basic rules for the shooter.

"Know your target and what lay beyond it."

A pistol round will carve a fairly straight path through drywall and will burrow into studs. Therefore, you can have a reasonable certainty of what might lay beyond its flight path. A miss with 5.56 means all bets are off as the round goes on penetrating far enough and fast enough in an unknown direction with a enough momentum to kill or maim an unintended target.

A shotgun will fire a tight initial group at room distances and the pellets will penetrate drywall as well, but the pellets take a predictable course and spread and as demonstrated at the Box, will penetrate fewer sheets of drywall than service caliber pistol rounds.

5.56 "breaking up" off of drywall is an internet exaggeration. It will eventually do so, but not fast enough to save you from a bad outcome in the next room or two if you hit a loved one unintentionally. Anything that can penetrate a bad guy adequately is going to also put the hurt on walls in the event of a miss.

So why do law enforcement agencies across the country use AR's? My son-in-law is a deputy sheriff. The AR is for busines and the shotty is for flinging bean bags.

 

[plasticfood]

Can't go wrong with one of each.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Completely differnt weapons systems for completely different uses.. this is like asking if an F350 dually is better than a Viper

 

[Blitzkrieg]

You need to read about some ballistics! Links incoming.

No, you do..

 

[Trailboss]

Seriously, if my family is being threatened, give me either one, I hit what I intend to.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

8/23/11

As many of the previous posts note, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice for home defense.

From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons. Below are the wound profiles of unobstructed shots at 3 meters, comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:



Dr. G.K. Roberts

5.56 SS109 has the same penetration as hot loaded hard cast 12 GA shotgun slugs. I have tested them both myself