Best SD +P load for snub nose 38 Special

[Certaindeaf]

Those are XTPs, they don't flower expand like an HST or a Gold Dot...they crush expand. They are made to penetrate, and crush expand with sharp points and edges.

Yes, they will reliably do this every time out of a snub.

No thanks.

 

[L84Cabo]

Federal HST has supposedly designed this round specifically for short revolvers, hence them calling it, "Micro."

Here's a couple of reviews on it from several years ago so you may be able to find some reviews that are more recent.

 

[Stomper]

110 gr +P/+P+ for .38 and 125's for .357, preferably SJHP.

Full of WIN!

 

[orygun]

You put the XTP in its power band, which is well within standard pressure load, it'll perform as it's designed to do...yes, even out of a snub.

Fantastic bullet.

We bought a box of Federal Premium 110gr Low recoil ammo loaded with Hydra-Shoks for my wife when she was carrying her 642. I'm really glad that she had the opportunity to try them on a deer rather than a person. Three shots to penetrate the skull at very close range.

Penetration matters.

 

[Mark W.]

Having shot a LOT of snub nose revolvers in .38+P and .44spl. About the only thing you gain with a hottter load is more muzzle flash and maybe a tad bit more BOOM. In a 2" to 3" barrel the powder just can't burn fast enough to do anything to the slug before its out in the wilds. And the powder is burning behind it.

Unless your seeing higher velocity on a chrono IMHO its a waste of hearing.

One of my carry pistols in a Charter Arms Undercover in .38+P I load a 125gr HP for my self defense load and At the less then 20ft range it will ever be used I'm quite satisfied with its accuracy and its ability to make a big hole.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Unless your seeing higher velocity on a chrono IMHO its a waste of hearing.

I'll have to add that to the list of detractors.

Maybe back in the day +P and +P+ was all that and needed, but its day is long since gone...especially with advancement in both material and bullet technology.

I know it's going to be hard for some to get away from, as that's what the experts said back in the day that was needed.

Standard pressure loads...less blast, recoil and easier on the hand, the gun, and the hearing.

 

[Jason1290]

Less recoil less blast and less noise are the least of my worries when it comes to defending my life. Ballistics have come a long way but the 38 special still struggles to get adequate expansion and penetration out of a snub nose. That's why I think a good +p load is necessary for stopping a threat. For plinking at the range, that's a whole different subject. There seems to be a very small margin between getting good enough velocity for expansion and also penetration out of the short barreled 38. That's why I'm really wanting to find the perfect combo. I don't care about recoil and noise

 

[Cerberus Group]

.............

 

[Cerberus Group]

I deleted the above, as your statement begs questions.

What in your mind is adequate penetration and expansion from a snub?

 

[Jason1290]

I deleted the above, as your statement begs questions.

What in your mind is adequate penetration and expansion from a snub?

4-5 tenths of an inch expansion reliably through some type of clothing barrier and at least 10" of penetration into gel.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Ok, now we're getting some parameters.

The 38 Special load I posted on the previous page, runs at around 830fps out of a 1 7/8 inch barrel and doesn't struggle with either penetration or expansion.

Most gel blocks are 16-20" in length. The load posted will penetrate 16-18" reliably through bare gel and through 4 layers of denim...and we've already scratched our heads about the 4 layers of denim standard.

The standard for penetration came about after the FBI 1986 Miami shootout, where the highly touted Winchester Silvertip worked as designed. It expanded perfectly...but didn't get the needed penetration to end the threat.

The problem with the Silvertip, they expand too quickly, which acts like a parachute, slows velocity and doesn't get the needed expansion...I see this alot in highly touted expanding bullets.

Expansion...the bullet used in the 38 load I posted on the previous page expanded as designed. It may not be what your after, but a standard pressure 38 load out of a snub...the XTP will reliably, not struggle to get expansion as designed and more than minimum standard for penetration.

My suggestion, watch the podcast in the link. I posted it after it came out some months ago, and a few on here made fun of it. These are the people the industry looks at and listens to when discussing ballistics.

They, like myself have pulled a few bullets out of people...what's written vs what's reality is different. When a ME can't tell the wound channel difference between a 9mm and a 45, it's time to relook at things.

But as always...all y'all carry what's best for you...I'll be sitting on the sidelines for the rest of this thread...I've spoke my peace.

View: https://youtu.be/h6MHG2cbZ7E?si=lhA6Edp-ZXglFjO2

 

[Jason1290]

Ok, now we're getting some parameters.

The 38 Special load I posted on the previous page, runs at around 830fps out of a 1 7/8 inch barrel and doesn't struggle with either penetration or expansion.

Most gel blocks are 16-20" in length. The load posted will penetrate 16-18" reliably through bare gel and through 4 layers of denim...and we've already scratched our heads about the 4 layers of denim standard.

The standard for penetration came about after the FBI 1986 Miami shootout, where the highly touted Winchester Silvertip worked as designed. It expanded perfectly...but didn't get the needed penetration to end the threat.

The problem with the Silvertip, they expand too quickly, which acts like a parachute, slows velocity and doesn't get the needed expansion...I see this alot in highly touted expanding bullets.

Expansion...the bullet used in the 38 load I posted on the previous page expanded as designed. It may not be what your after, but a standard pressure 38 load out of a snub...the XTP will reliably, not struggle to get expansion as designed and more than minimum standard for penetration.

My suggestion, watch the podcast in the link. I posted it after it came out some months ago, and a few on here made fun of it. These are the people the industry looks at and listens to when discussing ballistics.

They, like myself have pulled a few bullets out of people...what's written vs what's reality is different. When a ME can't tell the wound channel difference between a 9mm and a 45, it's time to relook at things.

But as always...all y'all carry what's best for you...I'll be sitting on the sidelines for the rest of this thread...I've spoke my peace.

View: https://youtu.be/h6MHG2cbZ7E?si=lhA6Edp-ZXglFjO2

Well said! I like the xtp bullet in other calibers and cartridges I just know it takes a bit of velocity to initiate expansion with them but they are known to penetrate very well! I appreciate your input and knowledge and thank you for the podcast link. I will listen to it and report back.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Having shot a LOT of snub nose revolvers in .38+P and .44spl. About the only thing you gain with a hottter load is more muzzle flash and maybe a tad bit more BOOM..

So no velocity/power gain at all?
Hold me!
You do know that the .38 and .44 specials are very often chambered and can be fired in guns that also will chamber .357 and .44 magnums, respectively, and what essentially makes them more powerful is a pinch of powder that gets all blowed out the front hole and is just a horrible horrible travesty and does nothing whatsoever.
Lol.

 

[Jason1290]

Ok, now we're getting some parameters.

The 38 Special load I posted on the previous page, runs at around 830fps out of a 1 7/8 inch barrel and doesn't struggle with either penetration or expansion.

Most gel blocks are 16-20" in length. The load posted will penetrate 16-18" reliably through bare gel and through 4 layers of denim...and we've already scratched our heads about the 4 layers of denim standard.

The standard for penetration came about after the FBI 1986 Miami shootout, where the highly touted Winchester Silvertip worked as designed. It expanded perfectly...but didn't get the needed penetration to end the threat.

The problem with the Silvertip, they expand too quickly, which acts like a parachute, slows velocity and doesn't get the needed expansion...I see this alot in highly touted expanding bullets.

Expansion...the bullet used in the 38 load I posted on the previous page expanded as designed. It may not be what your after, but a standard pressure 38 load out of a snub...the XTP will reliably, not struggle to get expansion as designed and more than minimum standard for penetration.

My suggestion, watch the podcast in the link. I posted it after it came out some months ago, and a few on here made fun of it. These are the people the industry looks at and listens to when discussing ballistics.

They, like myself have pulled a few bullets out of people...what's written vs what's reality is different. When a ME can't tell the wound channel difference between a 9mm and a 45, it's time to relook at things.

But as always...all y'all carry what's best for you...I'll be sitting on the sidelines for the rest of this thread...I've spoke my peace.

View: https://youtu.be/h6MHG2cbZ7E?si=lhA6Edp-ZXglFjO2

Great podcast. I'm an hour in and very interested. Thank you for sharing.

 

[dangerranger60]

That's generally what stops, in conjunction perhaps with its associated hydraulic tertiary affect due to higher velocity.
I believe the teir-one stopper is still the 125gr SJHP .357 Magnum fired from a 4" barrel, not a 550fps target wadcutter out of a snub.. or anything else.

The problem with a 125Gr magnum round from a lightweight snub is it would be painful to shoot... so painful that I would not practice. I would bet most shooters would not shoot more than a couple and the gun and load would go in the safe! DR

 

[dangerranger60]

Well said! I like the xtp bullet in other calibers and cartridges I just know it takes a bit of velocity to initiate expansion with them but they are known to penetrate very well! I appreciate your input and knowledge and thank you for the podcast link. I will listen to it and report back.

My own testing has no HP bullets reliably opening from a 2" or less barrel. That is until you get down to 110 gr, and at that point at +P pressure it gets enough velocity to reliably expand. the problem is 110 gr bullets don't penetrate well.
When I get to 3" and longer barrels, I could get reliable expansion.
The only other way I could get reliable expansion was with Magnum pressure loads.
I like XTP bullets and use them a lot in longer barrel guns. But in an Airweight snub, the slower moving WC bullets still cut a full caliber hole and penetrate deeply. All this at lower pressure that makes accurate shooting much easier! DR

 

[MikeE]

The big thing for me is point of aim-point of impact. Different revolvers seem to like different rounds. My 340 pd likes Georgia Arms wadcutters, my Kimber K6xs likes lighter rounds -Critical Defense 110 +P or Remington 110 + P. Because of its good grip, recoil is very manageable.

 

[orygun]

The problem with a 125Gr magnum round from a lightweight snub is it would be painful to shoot... so painful that I would not practice. I would bet most shooters would not shoot more than a couple and the gun and load would go in the safe! DR

My carry gun is a 3' Model 60 in 357. I shoot it primarily with 357 158gr softpoint ammo and in DA mode. It's a handful, but doesn't hurt like one would expect (I do have some pretty good hand strength) That other inch of barrel helps in more ways than one and a set of grips that fit the hand really help. The ones I prefer do not cover the backstrap and fit my hand very well.
I used to have a 649 2.125" barrel. It rolled in the hand more and wasn't as easy to control.

 

[Certaindeaf]

My carry gun is a 3' Model 60 in 357. I shoot it primarily with 357 158gr softpoint ammo and in DA mode. It's a handful, but doesn't hurt like one would expect (I do have some pretty good hand strength) That other inch of barrel helps in more ways than one and a set of grips that fit the hand really help. The ones I prefer do not cover the backstrap and fit my hand very well.
I used to have a 649 2.125" barrel. It rolled in the hand more and wasn't as easy to control.

View attachment 2033250

Yea, a 3" K-frame is essentially a duty gun, and awesome.

 

[orygun]

Yea, a 3" K-frame is essentially a duty gun, and awesome.

Except this is a J-frame, but I believe it is awesome, too.