Best armor for everyday or conflict use

[StacattoP]

Let's hear what you gotta say! Ar500, ceramic, polyethylene

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[CamoDeafie]

Let's hear what you gotta say! Ar500, ceramic, polyurethane

Polyethylene.

Polyurethanes a coating or paint

 

[StacattoP]

Stupid auto correct!

 

[CamoDeafie]

Hard or soft?

 

[StacattoP]

Anything you'd like it's an open talk here's were I will start https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BMAB6BAgDEAQ&usg=AOvVaw0T_DJghOky3muV4wqlF98J

 

[StacattoP]

I'd like to invite @User 1234 and @BrandonQuixote and @American123 to inquire to resume conversation!

 

[BrandonQuixote]

I was 100% against steel until i saw independent tests of Steel Ops stuff. Its thinner and cheaper and more resistant to multi hits than ceramic or polyeth. Both are bulky, I could have sworn I've seen some penetration issues with poly at the edges of the plate. Clearly buying cheap isn't the best route and "budget" armor is useless. If weight, bulk and fragility aren't an issue, go HESCO for ceramics.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Pretty hard to beat the following combinations;
3A soft behind any of these
Level 3
Level 3+ Special Threat Rated
Level 4

As to materials... for 3A; avoid Zylon and spectra/dyneema woven, go for Kevlar(brand name) or Aramid (generic name). Make sure they were stored in cool, dry and flat places. Not in the trunk of a cop car and washed after a month of being worn.

For the hard stuff...
Myself? I want to avoid AR500 steels, only exception would be the "steel core" armor thats recently introduced.

Polyethylene/UHMWPE seems to be hitting every mark I like... multi hit tested like AR500, relatively lightweight unlike steels, and rated to 3+. Affordable? Thats a fly in the ointment for the most part, but there's some that may be good on Ebay, although I haven't been able to find actual reviews on them.



There's a "ceramic" set from a Canadian Police surplus supply that weights 2.2kg each and has vinyl covering, is 10x12 and supposedly Level 3 NIJ certified standalone, may be Special Threat rated ICW 3A backers.


Ceramics are the standard standby, seems Demolition Ranch tested one of the Level 3+ plates and found them to stand up to 6 M855 hits and 7.62x39 hits each; before failing completely.



Edit. I find it real weird that people are touting "multi hit" as a virtue for whatever armor they pick... realistically? You ain't gonna put the steel plate back into use after getting knocked out by one round. At least not if its got significant denting from whatever rifle round hit it, and if you weren't wearing backers and trauma foam pad behind, you're going to have some broken bones and massive bruising.. hopefully not internal hemorrhage.

 

[CamoDeafie]

A long time ago, Second chance sold something interesting for their police armor vests. It was a kevlar wrapped steel or titanium plate, often 5x7 in size, sometimes 6x7 in size.. called "trauma insert". They were available in two thickness I think... one was proof to the equivalent of NIJ Level 3 with level 2 soft armor, the other was proofed to 7.62x51 and 5.56 with 3A soft armor. These are not easy to find anymore; but there is an interesting concept for what is essentially a lightweight system; basically 3A plate backer, and an insert of steel wrapped in kevlar or a thin 3+ ceramic plate, that is roughly 6x7 in size or 6x8, as a hard trauma insert on a minimalist armor set.

 

[titsonritz]

Show me one USA or allied military group or major LE agency that utilizes AR500 body armor. There's a clue in there somewhere.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Show me one USA or allied military group or major LE agency that utilizes AR500 body armor. There's a clue in there somewhere.

What was that guy who duct taped a plate to his back in order to protect himself from gangs who apparently have .338 Lapuas. While doing security work for a mall?? Gecko45something?

 

[American123]

Seems rather straightforward. Every option has it's strengths and weaknesses and each person has to choose what they want to prioritize.

Ceramic has the highest protection rating, but has the ability to crack, is less multi-hit capable compared to steel, and is overall less durable than steel, it can also spall to some degree (watch AR500 video showing this)

Steel has the greatest multi-hit life and overall durability and will effectively last forever if not abused in a way that will rust and degrade the steel, but it's the heaviest, it can also spall after repeated abuse.

Polyethylene is the lightest, offers protection, but less than both other options, and is also generally a lot bulkier than steel.

I think every patriotic American should own armor, what they choose, their choice, but steel seems to be the overall best solution for long term armor ownership, practice with. Like I said earlier, in 20 years I could have trained with that armor every year as long as I keep the steel's coating intact, steel will never degrade.

Polyethylene can degrade over time, in fact AR500 only lists the shelf life for 5 years, It should last longer but unless it is being abused, but compared to steel that they list a shelf life of 20 years, which is a bit of a joke because nothing will deteriorate.

I personally don't like how bulky polyethylene is, its about twice as thick as steel, if not more. When you try to position a rifle on the shoulder or do any physical task, that girth can get in the way.

I have worm 11x14 steel plates and played tennis sprinting in them just to teat them out. You arent as agile carrying 30 lbs of plates, but you can still run, and at that point it's just a matter of training.

The wife has polyethylene, the determinant of that was the weight, she was too weak for anything but polyethylene to be really an option, and when you want the woman to train, making it less uncomfortable makes it easier to convince them to train.

I chose to go with what AR500 calls, 3+ and then I also took 3a soft armor panels and put them behind the plates. The effect basically creates a level 4 armor system, without the brittleness of using ceramic. AR500 has a video of 3+ with leve 3a soft armor backing stopping black tip 30-06 AP rounds. The idea was I was achieving the greatest level of protection, but in a manner I wouldn't have to worry about being ineffective if I fell on the ground with it or dropped it, etc.

Is it heavy, I guess, just something to train through. I don't envision myself wearing it climbing the mountains of Afghanistan, but if I was handling an issue at the house, it would significantly reduce the surface area my torso could receive a potentially lethal gun shot wound.

 

[American123]

Pretty hard to beat the following combinations;
3A soft behind any of these
Level 3
Level 3+ Special Threat Rated
Level 4

As to materials... for 3A; avoid Zylon and spectra/dyneema woven, go for Kevlar(brand name) or Aramid (generic name). Make sure they were stored in cool, dry and flat places. Not in the trunk of a cop car and washed after a month of being worn.

For the hard stuff...
Myself? I want to avoid AR500 steels, only exception would be the "steel core" armor thats recently introduced.

Polyethylene/UHMWPE seems to be hitting every mark I like... multi hit tested like AR500, relatively lightweight unlike steels, and rated to 3+. Affordable? Thats a fly in the ointment for the most part, but there's some that may be good on Ebay, although I haven't been able to find actual reviews on them.



There's a "ceramic" set from a Canadian Police surplus supply that weights 2.2kg each and has vinyl covering, is 10x12 and supposedly Level 3 NIJ certified standalone, may be Special Threat rated ICW 3A backers.


Ceramics are the standard standby, seems Demolition Ranch tested one of the Level 3+ plates and found them to stand up to 6 M855 hits and 7.62x39 hits each; before failing completely.



Edit. I find it real weird that people are touting "multi hit" as a virtue for whatever armor they pick... realistically? You ain't gonna put the steel plate back into use after getting knocked out by one round. At least not if its got significant denting from whatever rifle round hit it, and if you weren't wearing backers and trauma foam pad behind, you're going to have some broken bones and massive bruising.. hopefully not internal hemorrhage.

I call BS on this. Physics says it doesn't work like that. The bullet leaving the barrel exerts the same amount of force on the shoulder of the shooter as it does when it impacts the armor place. (For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) the surface area of the buttstock diffuses the force into the shoulder, comparatively, the armor plate diffuses the impact of the bullet with its surface area. If there isn't such significant unless significant backface defoemation occurs that damages the body through the energy transfer in that way, the person wearing the armor shouldn't have much problem at all.

 

[CamoDeafie]

@American123 ; I believe almost everyone lists the shelf life of every armor except steel as 5 years for liability reasons, not for actual lifespans. Its the same with soft armor. As long as the soft armor has been stored properly and kept clean of sweat, and not subject to quick temp changes or UV exposure, it should last a fair bit.

Steel does rust; but thats mainly if subject to moisture and salt (hmm.. sweat) and without a waterproof/vapor barrier coating. That is something I've been curious about, the spall coatings should be OK if everything goes right, but sometimes humidity?

Personally I don't understand why companies don't just wrap steel armor in a few layers of kevlar/aramid fabric as spall protection... if it worked for Second Chance's small inserts, it should work for the standard plate sizes?

I call BS on this. Physics says it doesn't work like that. The bullet leaving the barrel exerts the same amount of force on the shoulder of the shooter as it does when it impacts the armor place. (For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) the surface area of the buttstock diffuses the force into the shoulder, comparatively, the armor plate diffuses the impact of the bullet with its surface area. If there isn't such significant unless significant backface defoemation occurs that damages the body through the energy transfer in that way, the person wearing the armor shouldn't have much problem at all.

Its still transferring most of the force and kinetic energy into the soft tissue.

Very few cases where one is hit in the armor by multiple AK rounds and still standing, if the action reports from Afghanistan and Iraq are anything to to by. While it may not be from kinetic force itself, its often from the pain

 

[American123]

@American123 ; I believe almost everyone lists the shelf life of every armor except steel as 5 years for liability reasons, not for actual lifespans. Its the same with soft armor. As long as the soft armor has been stored properly and kept clean of sweat, and not subject to quick temp changes or UV exposure, it should last a fair bit.

Steel does rust; but thats mainly if subject to moisture and salt (hmm.. sweat) and without a waterproof/vapor barrier coating. That is something I've been curious about, the spall coatings should be OK if everything goes right, but sometimes humidity?

Personally I don't understand why companies don't just wrap steel armor in a few layers of kevlar/aramid fabric as spall protection... if it worked for Second Chance's small inserts, it should work for the standard plate sizes?






Its still transferring most of the force and kinetic energy into the soft tissue.

Very few cases where one is hit in the armor by multiple AK rounds and still standing, if the action reports from Afghanistan and Iraq are anything to to by. While it may not be from kinetic force itself, its often from the pain

Again - the force the shooter receives from recoil is directly equivalent to the force the bullet impacts the armor plate with, the only difference is surface area of the buttstock compared to surface area of the plate and how it is diffused to the body. How is the kenetic energy of the bullet impacting the plate any different than the kinetic energy of the recoil experience, the bullet only has as much energy as also was going the opposite direction as recoil.

I'd imagine a lot of people falling over after being shot is due to the surprise od the impact coupled with the psychological factor of being hit. I don't know anyone who has been shot wearing armor, and I'm not going to volunteer to test this concept, but there are plenty of tests that conducted to test it.

 

[StacattoP]

Show me one USA or allied military group or major LE agency that utilizes AR500 body armor. There's a clue in there somewhere.

Here's a faq awnsered by Spartan armor who are very well know and very well reputable

 

[titsonritz]

Here's a faq awnsered by Spartan armor who are very well know and very well reputable

View attachment 648303

Not exactly a raving endorsement.

 

[CamoDeafie]

If theres enough kinetic energy for a bullet to make a dent deep enough on ar500 plate, that dent has to transfer the remaining energy into the tissue. I know of no body armor in which 100% of the energy from a rifle round is contained within the armor thickness.

Here's a faq awnsered by Spartan armor who are very well know and very well reputable

View attachment 648303

Well yea, note armored car. Just what are armored vehicles other than tanks are made of ?
M113 uses aluminum armor. Does it mean we should wear aluminum plates? Heck no lol it's not gonna be thin or light enough to protect against small arms on a person.

The M1114 Up Armored HummVee has steel armor.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Government & Military Steel Supplier | Clifton Steel

We supply aluminum armor & steel armor plate to US Government facilities, vehicle manufacturers, fabricators & facility protection systems.

www.cliftonsteel.com

Significant note; doesnt list personal body armor as a product of theirs

 

[StacattoP]

Show me one USA or allied military group or major LE agency that utilizes AR500 body armor. There's a clue in there somewhere.

You asked someone to show.you it was used by the military and there source is credible