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Excellent point.

ANY shotgun load will penetrate multiple walls in your home and will injure/kill anything on the other side.

Be sure of your backstop so you can minimize the injury to those innocents downrange.

As The Quiet Man stated above, go test different loads on drywall and see what you are comfortable with. You will be absolutely stunned to see how much penetration will occur with a 12 gauge. The firearms academy of seattle has a video that is incorporated into one of their shotgun courses and it deals with this exact issue.

Once as a kid I had an AD with #7 shot out of a 12ga bolt action. The barrel was about 6ft from the wall and the shot was perpendicular to the wall. The shot penetrated the wall and embedded in the next wall, approx 10ft from the first wall. Some of the shot hit an adjacent window, old style aluminum-framed double pane. Some shot penetrated the first pane, but not the second. Most shot did not penetrate the first pane.
 
Wow, do you listen to the stuff you type? Seriously, do you ever read outloud what you type to see how rediculous it sounds?


I guarantee that if you kill someone with this round you will be eaten alive by the prosecutor and/or lawyer of the "victim". You use lethal force to stop a threat, the desired outcome is not to kill. Granted that is a probable outcome. If you use that fancy 6 blade slug you will show that you have no regard for human life and only wanted to kill.
 
Last Edited:
If you use that fancy 6 blade slug you will show that you have no regard for human life and only wanted to kill.

When the police report reads the same from the wife and kids that he said he was gonna rape my wife then kill her infront of the kids and me then kill the kids as I watch then kill me.........

"Well, I keep these rounds for deer hunting mr. po po. Never thought I would have to use them to defend my families liberty and freedom from torture and tyrany". You could even show them pics of hunts from past deer seasons.

I keep guns in the house because it is my right. I keep any legal to buy ammo in my house. If its wrong to use that round for the defense of liberty and life, then them rounds would be illegal.

Lethal means lethal. If lethal forece was legaly authorized then it matters not if you use a baseball bat or a deer hunting slug. Lethal force used legaly with ANY legal to own ammo is legal for the use of legal lethal force. Read the revised codes of your state. The RCWs even state what IS illegal and can NOT be used for the legal use of lethal force.

Read the laws and know them.

There is nothing wrong with the use of them legal to own slugs for legal use of lethal force. Is that so hard to understand? seriously......
 
I have the Aguila ½; size rounds in my Win 1300. They cycle just fine BTW. We live in a detached home and our MH. Don't want the penetration and ranges are close enough for this round. I also have Fiochi 00 if I want to use it, just too much penetration for the MH. I can load 13 rds in the tube also.

Eight U.S. Presidents have been NRA members. They are: Ulysses S. Grant,
Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Dwight D. Eisenhower,
John F. Kennedy, Richard M. Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George Bush

80 MILLION gun owners didn't shoot anyone today, a few criminals did!

----------------------------------------------------------

The "Feedback Score" is low by 4, not everyone posts it I guess.

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector member
South West Washington Arms Collector member
 
Even if it is ruled justifiable homicide doesn't mean your legal issues are over.
Facts, laws, RCW's are all rendered moot when a lawyer gets involved and sees $$$$$$$.

Massad Ayoob covered a similar topic about a year ago. Here is an excerpt from it.

Picking a load that has proven itself on duty with the police gives the armed citizen added confidence in what their chosen gun/cartridge combination can deliver. Using ammunition that is widely issued to police is a strong defense against unmeritorious courtroom allegations such as, "He used evil hollow point bullets that rend and tear, and that shows he had malice in his heart!"

Defense Loads of Choice: The Word from the Street by Massad Ayoob
 
Lethal means lethal. If lethal forece was legaly authorized then it matters not if you use a baseball bat or a deer hunting slug. Lethal force used legaly with ANY legal to own ammo is legal for the use of legal lethal force.

There it is...the reason why I laughed at your statement LibertyorDeath.

Any and all means available to protect yourself and your loved ones. We're not talking about an alarm system that you installed with booby traps to explode (possibly maiming or killing someone). We're talking about guns and bullets. It's that line of thinking that got the production of Black Talon rounds stopped.

Yes, the DA is going to pick apart everything you do....every bullet you chose to the calliber to that fancy laser sight you have on your gun. Should we sit here and say you shouldn't have that stuff? No...if it is more effective then it is more effective. Just realize that you may have problems...the DA (depending on how overzelous he/she is) will find angles to pick apart your shooting anyways.

Did you register your firearm? Did you get trained in it's use? How often do you go to the range? How many bullets do you carry? How many firearms do you keep loaded around the house?

So...knowing this, my advise is after a shoot- SHUT YOUR MOUTH AND CALL A LAWYER.

Let some other overzlous pencil pusher fight another overzelous pencil pusher.
 
Training and practice are what matter, not the load. Even dry-fire practice is useful, presenting the weapon and operating the action. At indoor-type ranges (<10yds.) there's not as much difference between 00 and #4 buck as you might expect:
The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing

My recommendation is that you get another Mossberg 500 for your bride. Two are at least four times as effective as one.

For training, you'll need something to ease the strain of firing dozens of rounds. I like the Knoxx recoil-absorbing stock:
Amazon.com: Knoxx Mossberg Stock Md: 05200 .: Sports & Outdoors

The one other thing that I might recommend is a tritium front bead:
Meprolight Tru-Dot Tritium Front Sight - Mossberg M500, M590 - Top Gun Supply
because the bad guys tend to show up at night.
 
Too many people to reply to for a quote of any one of you.

If you are a WA resident shame on you for assumeing anything if you carry and or keep a weapon for home or personal defense.

First off here is the RCW with the ONLY limitations on weapons parts or contraband

RCW 9.41.220: Unlawful firearms and parts contraband.

Here are a few more RCWs you should have already known.

RCW 9A.16.050: Homicide ? By other person ? When justifiable.

RCW 9A.16.010: Definitions.

RCW 9A.16.030: Homicide ? When excusable.

Here is the best part now. A DA can pick apart any legal use of lethal force he wants. Trouble is when the jury finds you innocent because you never broke a law, the tax payers WILL pay your defense fees and any wages lost from work. Seriously now. How many of you can give an instance a legal shoot was turned bad by a conviction hungry DA in WA? You wont find it. They value job security over conviction numbers and think long and hard bofore going after someone based on personal beliefs when he will have to explain to the boss (the tax payers) why what little money they have is being handed out because of false trials. Lemme know what you learn, then get back to me.

RCW 9A.16.110: Defending against violent crime ? Reimbursement.

Your guys' assumtions are plain silly. Lethal force is lethal force. You could use a bat, a car, anything legal to buy or own to commit the legal use of lethal force. If you can find a RCW in WA that can prove the use of one lethal method over another is somehow illegal, then by all means give proof. Assumtions and thinks do not count.......
 
I guess my point is that why use a round that could look bad to a jury when 00 buck is proven to be entirely effective. Now I admit that round looks bad *** but from a try not to get sued aspect it looks like a liability. Why give a DA or any attorney any leverage at all when there is something proven out there. That's all I was trying to say. If the law allowed the defendant of to recoup attorney fees after frivolous lawsuits that would be different. We live in a litigious society and it sucks ***.
 
the tax payers WILL pay your defense fees and any wages lost from work.
From a criminal trial...Yes.

From a civil trial...No.

Seriously now. How many of you can give an instance a legal shoot was turned bad by a conviction hungry DA in WA?

Maybe not shootings...but- <broken link removed>

"...
He was eventually charged in Benton County District Court with a gross misdemeanor for the unlawful carrying or displaying of a firearm "in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

Those overzelous, anti-gun DAs ARE out there, make no mistake about it. Just becuse it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it won't happen.
 
If you are so worried about being sued for defending your life or the life of a family memeber, then the answer is simple.

Instead of waking up every morning, or watching a family member wake up every day and going to court and still having a loved ones or your life to still enjoy, when you walk into court is not good enough for you. Then just sell your guns. If you have none to use on someone that will result in a lawsuit, then they can not sue. Pretty easy concept.

Maybe if you carry around flowers and give them to someone trying to rape your wife or daughter and or kill them will look good in court when you try to sue the criminal that took you and yours from you......

I am 100&#37; fully prepared to be sued. Are you? If the price I pay for life is a lawsuit by a survivor, then so be it. Its a part of growing up and a part of the process of defending life.

Some of you already believe you will go to jail and be sued if you defend a life and thats all you seem to worry about. Who gives a s**t. Let em sue, I will still be alive or my family will still be alive......
 
:D

Fireworks3.jpg
 
1. Why, if the police are in a residence and need to shoot do they fire .40 SW or 00 buck if their #1 concern is over penetration?

2. Bird shot will NOT penetrate to vitals. It will make a real bloody mess about 2" deep at the most.

3. Consider where you live. I live on acreage in the country on rolling terrain where a shot could not hit a neighbor's house. One size doesn't fit all.

$.02
 
I prefer #4 shot... deadly at 30 yards, but won't kill a neighbor through walls like .30 shot can in the same situation. If you put half your #4 shot load on target at 30 yards (90 ft) you will immediately stop any aggressive action. You want to stop the threat, not kill innocents.

I agree with this 100&#37;, and loaded #4 when I lived in apartments. When I moved to a house with some separation I switched to 00/slug alternating. No matter what you decide on, find out what shoots best in your particular gun and practice with what you choose.

Also, I love this book and highly recommend it: Amazon.com: Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun (9780936279114): Massad F. Ayoob: Books. Regardless of how you feel about Massad (I'm a fan, but many are not), I think this book has some excellent info in it.
 
this is what you need is what the police in Mexico use so they don kill the neighbours , the Mossberg will cycle it ok if the weapon is level or pointed slightly down but the Mexican police use the Winchester 1300 it cycles these very well just my 2 cents
Shotshells Shotgun, Ammunition, ammo, slugs, buckshot, shells, birdshot, snakeshot, shot, Aguila, Winchester, Federal, PMC, S&B, Wolf :s0155:

A #1 buck or #4buck pellet at 1200 fps will not penetrate less because the shell is only 2" long.......
 

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