Being seen pointing your weapon at someone

yotehunter · Nov 29, 2009

My biggest fear while carrying is that if I have to pull my weapon, or use my weapon on someone, is that if someone ELSE sees me who is carrying too. And they pull there weapon on me because they think I am the bad guy while I am trying to protect myself or someone else's life. What are your thoughts on this?

glockguy · Nov 29, 2009

Assuming you'd have your Weapon pulled for a very good reason, I think if someone were to walk up They would most likely understand oh get the idea as to Why you are pointing your gun at someone.

My Biggest fear is wondering when an appropriate time to pull your gun would be. Iv told myself that I would only do it if it was a last resort, but sometimes i think it maybe to late if i think about it for a second or two.

.45's and .38's · Nov 29, 2009

A little scary considering, unlike the police, people who CC dont have to give a warning. You are right, Someone could just pull on you before you had a chance to explain. Very nice question

timbernet · Nov 29, 2009

1 - is to hope any other CHL holders out there don't "engage" if they aren't directly threatened. ie, if they can escape then they should. While technically under ORS you can "protect" a 3rd-party, the potential for "shooting the wrong guy" or other legal ramifications are fairly large. If I was defending a friend/family member that is one thing... but a pure stranger... I think it would have to depend on the situation, but if I can clear out safely, I most likely well.

THAT said - being VOCAL will help you out... not just with others that might be carrying, but witnesses that will be talking to police afterwards. If you are the one saying "I don't want to shoot you, put your weapon down" and "drop your weapon or I will shoot"

That way when witnesses are questioned, instead of them saying "that guy over there (you) pulled a gun and shot that other guy" they will say "that guy over there kept saying put your weapon down, I don't want to shoot... drop your weapon" -- it establishes that you weren't the one out for blood.

PhysicsGuy · Nov 29, 2009

This is a case where situational awareness comes in to play, where if you do have to draw a weapon, you must not only concentrate on the threat, but anyone else around, because depending on the situation, the person you are drawing your weapon on may have come with friends, or there may be a LEO or fellow CC nearby, and if you notice it early enough, you can announce your intentions.

Poor situational awareness and communication (and probably poor judgment on the officers part) lead to the homeowner who had a weapon drawn being shot by the police in another thread.

OFADAN · Nov 29, 2009

This is why we have the Adjudicator at OFA to train in simulated "real-world" force-on-force (FOF) simulations. These sorts of real world scenarios occur in the Adjudicator and students get to "work through" these situations using AirSoft weapons in real time with real experienced actors who know how to role play - rather than game play John/Jane Doe Citizen, the bystander, and your average to unaverage VCA (Violent Criminal Actor).

A few things are common when we're in the simulation...there is a lot of humble pie being served, there is a LOT of "ah ha's" and lessons being assimilated, there are a few welts from being wacked by an Airsoft (training by pain in order to seek gain), and there are a lot of behavioral and tactical changes the next time a person goes through their next simulation. If you want to improve rapidly then these simulations will put you on a fast track!

Also EVERY time someone states before they go in a scenario; "I'll do this or I'll do that...or if I was you I would have done this or that" things never go the way we want them...things always unravel faster, closer, and different than what we concoct in our brains.

In all the years I've been teaching or been a student I've learned more in a few trips through scenario based force on force than all the years bust'n caps at a target range or going through computer simulators when there is no "skin in the game" (meaning no training by pain) and I'm not training against real "unpredictable" humans rather than a programmed logic chain of events. Human nature is very unpredictable...yet we can learn some simple basic tactics and strategies that work generally in most defensive situations.

I always wanted to know "how I'd react" if someone pulled a gun on me in a situation - what would I do? There are two types of behavior - natural and trained. The first couple times I went through a FOF I was operating under my natural behavior. It got me into trouble...a lot of trouble. Fortunately it is a simulation and no one was hurt by my ego. The subsequent trips through I started working on and relying on my trained behavior which circumvents my natural behavior and I started surviving a lot more times than I didn't.

All I can tell you is you will not know what you'll do or how you'll react until you find out for yourself. The ideal way is to find out in a simulated situation rather than on the street for real. I can tell you all the hours chatting on a forum or sitting around a campfire talking about with my buddies never got me any more prepared then when I stepped through the door of the Adjudicator for the first time -my heart was pounding, my hands shaking, my mouth very dry...and my body shifting into the Tachypsychia mode of operation!

Deavis · Nov 29, 2009

Non-uniformed police have this problem as well as civilians. To get an idea of how often go to www.odmp.org and search officer deaths by firearms/accidental. LOTS of blue on blue.

Bearing arms in a public place is DICEY! having your after actions figured out or at least thought out in advance will help... I am sure this is something OFA teaches, as does Thunder Ranch etc... The bullets that go in from the good guys hurt you just as bad as the ones who go in from the bad guys.

REALLY big doses of comon sense required!

clearconscience · Nov 29, 2009

One thing I learned is good people always want the cops involved.
If you have to pull your weapons start yelling for someone to call the cops, call 911, whatever.
If you are yelling for the cops they will know your not the bad guy.

yotehunter · Dec 2, 2009

This is good information. How much do the classes cost?

ZeroRing · Dec 2, 2009

clearconscience said:
One thing I learned is good people always want the cops involved.
If you have to pull your weapons start yelling for someone to call the cops, call 911, whatever.
If you are yelling for the cops they will know your not the bad guy.

THAT is a very good point. :s0155:

crosse · Dec 3, 2009

timbernet said:
1 - is to hope any other CHL holders out there don't "engage" if they aren't directly threatened. ie, if they can escape then they should. While technically under ORS you can "protect" a 3rd-party, the potential for "shooting the wrong guy" or other legal ramifications are fairly large. If I was defending a friend/family member that is one thing... but a pure stranger... I think it would have to depend on the situation, but if I can clear out safely, I most likely well.

THAT said - being VOCAL will help you out... not just with others that might be carrying, but witnesses that will be talking to police afterwards. If you are the one saying "I don't want to shoot you, put your weapon down" and "drop your weapon or I will shoot"

That way when witnesses are questioned, instead of them saying "that guy over there (you) pulled a gun and shot that other guy" they will say "that guy over there kept saying put your weapon down, I don't want to shoot... drop your weapon" -- it establishes that you weren't the one out for blood.

+1
being vocal is also a very good weapon. Its not a coincidence that cops are so vocal with suspects. The presence of an authoritative voice at elevated levels can psychologically mess with a BG's sense of control. "LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS!!! HANDS HANDS HANDS!!!" Anyway one can overwhelm a BG w/o lethal force be it strobing or blinding flashlight, loud commands, or really bad body odor, anything to overload the BG's senses.

jeddedia · Dec 3, 2009

crosse said:
+1
being vocal is also a very good weapon. Its not a coincidence that cops are so vocal with suspects. The presence of an authoritative voice at elevated levels can psychologically mess with a BG's sense of control. "LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS!!! HANDS HANDS HANDS!!!" Anyway one can overwhelm a BG w/o lethal force be it strobing or blinding flashlight, loud commands, or really bad body odor, anything to overload the BG's senses.

I'm going to stop wearing deodorant and hope I can stink the BG to death. :s0046:

56kninja · Dec 3, 2009

When I do (eventually) carry, I wouldn't pull my weapon on a stranger. If I just see someone pointing a gun at another person.. I'd just get out of sights, and call the cops. Different case if I see someone just start firing, but if it were a fire fight I'd just get way out of the way, and then call the cops.