Being Goofy Fringe-Right Hurts Gun Rights

[RevJimII]

You do realize that without liberals and progressives that the right to have a gun wouldn't mean much, (snip)

This is incorrect, the armed individual carries to help protect against a tyrannical government not opposing viewpoints. Without the existence of such a government I would not relinquish my weapon due to the existance of dangerous animals (I hunt/fish/hike..) and more dangerous criminal element.

I don't see this "..when everything that is being done is Moderate Republican.." as being completely correct. Regardless of party, what government is doing is at the least fascist bordering on socialist. Government mandates, spreading the wealth, mandatory health care.. papers please?

I see a lot of folks trying to paint gun owning patriotic citizens as fanatics when the majority of them I have met are very well versed, intelligent and civilized members of society.

Rev Jim II

 

[Fjolnirsson]

Wow. I can't believe the nonsense I am reading here. Palin hurting conservatives? She's the reason McCain came as close as he did to beating Obama. HE lost the election with his wishy washy reaching across party lines rhetoric.

So, should we just roll over and allow our guns to be taken away? Since 1934, gun owners have been "being reasonable", making concessions and compromises, and look where it got us. No more! Did homosexuals get where they are by being quiet and polite? No, they didn't. They worked hard, got elected and marched in parades until they became impossible to ignore. The old saying says the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and it is about time that conservatives learned this! The Tea Parties are 20 years too late, IMO, but not too late, I hope.

So go ahead and call us nutjobs, tell us we are wrong. We are the ones who will safeguard our RKBA, and we'll do it for ourselves and our children, even if you don't appreciate it!

And by the way, most of us vocal nutjobs believe in the whole Bill of Rights, not just the 2nd. Without the 2nd though, there is no 1st amendment!

 

[slingshot1943]

You can always tell what the lefties are doing because thier scam is to accuse the right of doing what they are doing.

 

[RevJimII]

Wow. I can't believe the nonsense I am reading here. Palin hurting conservatives? She's the reason McCain came as close as he did to beating Obama. HE lost the election with his wishy washy reaching across party lines rhetoric.

So, should we just roll over and allow our guns to be taken away? Since 1934, gun owners have been "being reasonable", making concessions and compromises, and look where it got us. No more! Did homosexuals get where they are by being quiet and polite? No, they didn't. They worked hard, got elected and marched in parades until they became impossible to ignore. The old saying says the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and it is about time that conservatives learned this! The Tea Parties are 20 years too late, IMO, but not too late, I hope.

So go ahead and call us nutjobs, tell us we are wrong. We are the ones who will safeguard our RKBA, and we'll do it for ourselves and our children, even if you don't appreciate it!

And by the way, most of us vocal nutjobs believe in the whole Bill of Rights, not just the 2nd. Without the 2nd though, there is no 1st amendment!

AMEN! When one falls, they will all fall. People do not read enough history. Disarmament is the first stage of tyranny. I regret that I was too quiet and polite for too many years. I am done with being politically correct and getting swept under the rug. Being a middle aged, white, armed minister has put me in quite the pickle at times.. but hey, at least things aren't boring eh?!

 

[Just Jim]

You can always tell what the lefties are doing because thier scam is to accuse the right of doing what they are doing.

That is a fact. Obama said his was going to be the most open and honest administration ever, it's obvious that isn't true. His healthcare program is set to ruin healthcare. I just hope he doesn't start telling us what he is going to do for gun owners

Let me rephrase that, let's just hope his teleprompter doesn't tell us what they are going to do for gun owners.

jj

 

[bugeye]

You do realize that without liberals and progressives that the right to have a gun wouldn't mean much, (snip)

This is incorrect, the armed individual carries to help protect against a tyrannical government not opposing viewpoints. Without the existence of such a government I would not relinquish my weapon due to the existance of dangerous animals (I hunt/fish/hike..) and more dangerous criminal element.

I don't see this "..when everything that is being done is Moderate Republican.." as being completely correct. Regardless of party, what government is doing is at the least fascist bordering on socialist. Government mandates, spreading the wealth, mandatory health care.. papers please?

I see a lot of folks trying to paint gun owning patriotic citizens as fanatics when the majority of them I have met are very well versed, intelligent and civilized members of society.

Rev Jim II

First off you chopped off the point of my first statement so I'll take that as you have no counter for the fact that we owe liberals and progressives much for the 40 hour week, no child labor, end of the company store, etc.

Could you be a little less vague about what is being done? What government mandates are you talking about? Almost everyone may have to have insurance ,, based on a pending vote, but that is only fair as people wihout coverage are getting services and not paying for it, leaving the insured to pick up the bill. That is the only new mandate I know of from the feds?

Fascism and socialism are nearly exact opposites, so when you folks claim this is the state of things, it just sounds sort of dumb. The only real spreading of the wealth done in the last year was the wall street bailouts. These were absolutlely necessary, and if you don't believe that you need to study up on the credit default swaps, and when you get it that the markets were insured for 20 times the actual value of all the goods and services the world produces in a year, you will come around. The tax rates are just the same as they were, though there was some klunker cash, investment money for green energy, and a first time home buyers credit, and these could be seen as a type of spreading the wealth, but nothing to compare with the near zero % rate that banks are getting money for from the federal reserve. Seems to me this is the same old redistrbution practiced in every capitalistic democracy from Athens to now, money flows ujphill.

I agree with you on your last point, I think we have been amazingly responsible, and am in agreement with you there. Just from your post I can see that you're an intelligent person who is not the target of my post, but you have to know some people who live off the right wing hate media ato such an extent that they seem just plain nuts.

 

[wheretheheckami]

"we owe liberals and progressives much for the 40 hour week, no child labor, end of the company store, etc."
Apples and oranges here. Those responsible for bringing these things bear no resemblance to those passing themselves off as liberals today. The liberals of that era would more closely resemble Reagan than Obama, Pelosi or Reid.

"Almost everyone may have to have insurance ,, based on a pending vote, but that is only fair as people wihout coverage are getting services and not paying for it, leaving the insured to pick up the bill".
Somewhat correct here. So why the **** pay another 1.2 trillion dollars to accomplish similar results? Actually, the results won't be similar...care will be rationed. You can believe the Obamessiah, and Pelosi if you so choose. But, Obamacare will not be like medicare. It will be like the Oregon Health Plan!

"Fascism and socialism are nearly exact opposites"
Myth. National Socialism and International Socialism are not that much different.

 

[RevJimII]

bugeye,

I wasn't trying to chop anything up and if I did it was not intentional. I was working on a truncated schedule earlier.

I have to give some weight to wheretheheckami's point that the parties have all changed course in the last 100 years. The Democratic Party that is today is a far cry from that my Father has been a member of for most of his 80+ years. Which makes it hard on those of us who are debating things to keep track of who actually did what and when!

Not being a political scholar or financial wiz, I just draw on my somewhat limited knowledge and perceptions of what I understand of the situation. This is why I called it facism bordering on socialism. Facism being, is a political ideology that seeks to combine radical and authoritarian nationalism with a corporatist economic system and Socialism to my mind being the anti-capitalism is the next step by removing the marriage of nationism and corporatism. I know I use broad strokes here but I do try to maintain a simplistic approach to things. All of these terms have a multitude of definitions and shades.

I was quickly refering to anything the government does that is not an enumerated power as being a federal mandate or requirement on the citizenry. I believe in personal responsibility, I have a beef against most insurance requirements even though I do not at the moment have a solution to a lot of the problems I am complaining about (my bad). I beleive if we clean up the existing health care structure we already have we would be far ahead of the curve and not have to have government control of it or my personal health portfolio.

I still have my doubts on the necessity of the bailouts. Again, I am not an expert and don't have all the info that would help me with an informed decision. I do believe that even if the fed was justified in bailouts by buying into private companies, the overall size of these bailouts are insane. It is the government 'ownership' in these companies that gave rise to the facism comments.

Like a lot of independant conservatives, I do believe we need to fix things and be proactive.. we just can't trust the fed to gobble up everything in sight. By nature power corrupts and feeding the beast is never a good idea.

I appreciate a good debate and am happy to do so with another who is willing to keep things civil and interesting! I think where I was going originally was just trying to point out that not all conservatives who listen to some of the more right wing variations of talk radio / cable news are rhetoric spewing fanatics.. we have enough of those on BOTH sides of the spectrum!!

While I realize my .38 is no match for modern military armament, I carry my sidearm for the defense of my life and those of my loved ones. I open carry to promote the responsible integration of self defense weapons in public situations. I carry despite 20,000+ convoluted firearms regulations on both local and federal level to show that I am not going to stop exercising my natural rights affirmed by the Constitution, which is why I talk a lot as well.

I hope you all have a wonderful weekend and I look forward to further discourse on the subjects at hand.

Rev. Jim II

 

[bugeye]

"we owe liberals and progressives much for the 40 hour week, no child labor, end of the company store, etc."
Apples and oranges here. Those responsible for bringing these things bear no resemblance to those passing themselves off as liberals today. The liberals of that era would more closely resemble Reagan than Obama, Pelosi or Reid.

"Almost everyone may have to have insurance ,, based on a pending vote, but that is only fair as people wihout coverage are getting services and not paying for it, leaving the insured to pick up the bill".
Somewhat correct here. So why the **** pay another 1.2 trillion dollars to accomplish similar results? Actually, the results won't be similar...care will be rationed. You can believe the Obamessiah, and Pelosi if you so choose. But, Obamacare will not be like medicare. It will be like the Oregon Health Plan!

"Fascism and socialism are nearly exact opposites"
Myth. National Socialism and International Socialism are not that much different.

1. I disagree, Regan would have never made a progressive of the old school, they were pretty far left and were in favor of socialism, indeed todays liberals and progressives are lots more moderate the opposite of what you implied. These were tough labor activists we are talking about here matching thug for thug the business interests, and we owe them much.

2. The 1.2 trillion is over ten years, and will be mitigated by reductions in provider services, drug prices, and insurance premiums that were negotiated by this admin early on in this process. The actual cost of savings are not clear as they were behind doors and voluntary, and will prob. require the gov being on their rears for complaince. Care is rationed now by our insurers, and the gov is providing health care coverage for about 40% of the population for our elderly and they aren't rationing much at all. The Oregon health plan has never had adequate funding, so that program isn't going to be like this one. And there is a huge difference between people getting low cost care vs. showing up at emergency rooms.

National Socialism was the Nazi party, this was a strong right wing fascist party that had to do with the will of the dictator working with industry, that was allowed to do anything they wanted. This is fascism.

Socialism is a transistion social and economic stage in Marxist philosophy where wealth is divided equally until people were supposed to abandon greed (yeah sure), at which point they could transition to communist. In real life we have had dictators like Stalin run socialist countries, making little difference between a fascist dictatorial and a socialist dictatorial country, I give you that one. But really the use of the world socialism in the case of the Nazi's was just false, used to attract socialists to the party at one point, they had no pretense of equality at all. Obama is no socialist or fascist, he is a deal making moderate republican in the tradition of Clinton. This is what he has done all emotional paranoia put aside.

 

[ZeroRing]

Naaahhhh, you ask a liber a simple question and he has to write a full book answer They will be back

jj

A full book answer filled with side notes about how "fringy" anything 1% to the right of THEIR sanctimonious opinions is.

 

[Thule]

It's not "fringe" or "nutjob" to expect the American government to abide by the constraints set forth by the Constitution.

I'll also add that thinking that it's OK to rework or disregard the foundation that our forefathers laid for our country makes you part of the problem.

 

[Just Jim]

I suspect that if this healthcare goes through that liberals will find civility has gone right out the window

jj

 

[bugeye]

Rev Jim I read your post and found it well thought out.
I respect your views, and though I don't agree with all of them, you have reasons and are not operating from an impossible level of absolute truth. Rabid views without reasons scare our critics, and Obama + the media has polarized this country to a point that I'm not sure we can stand. I think the right wing media is succeding beyond their wildest expectations with some people, and they get worked up and act out an interpretation of 'Yosemite Sam'. Sane people will either find them 'funny' or be afraid of them, in either case it looks bad for us as gun owners.

I suspect, if TSHTF that the vast majority of us will end up being protectors and not predators. Responsible gun owners have value to our families, neighbors, friends and communites. We can gain a lot more support from people with this truth, then we can by ranting a one sided polemic, self promoting ourselves to patriots, while threatening to overthrow the government.

One of the reasons I have guns is to protect my loved ones from fanatics. When we let them go on without questioning them, we are not doing them, or ourselves, a service. I think there is nothing more pathetic than someone calling themselves a patriot because they are marching in DC, because some pundit told them to do it. This term patriot shouldn't be something so cheap, to many have paid the last full measure for it.

 

[Just Jim]

"This term patriot shouldn't be something so cheap, to many have paid the last full measure for it."

Maybe you should look who you stand with and what they stand for before you call others radicals. Our founding fathers were traitors to the Crown, stood against government to fight for freedom. Freedom shouldn't be voted away by lazy fools who want others to pay their way through life.

The stupidity of thinking government should handle healthcare is a perfect example of people willing to give up their very lives and everyone elses to government. With private healthcare you have a buffer called government to regulate healthcare. Now it will be government deciding who lives and who dies.

Ever wonder why your doctor ask if you own guns? Your answer was sent into the government with your health records. If you said yes then they can deny you care. If you said no and they check the records then they deny you care.
People get what they deserve.

jj

 

[bugeye]

It's not "fringe" or "nutjob" to expect the American government to abide by the constraints set forth by the Constitution.

I'll also add that thinking that it's OK to rework or disregard the foundation that our forefathers laid for our country makes you part of the problem.

It is if you have no legitimate basis for your assesment, that is the very definition of 'nutjob' isn't it, someone with very strong opinions without very strong supporting facts? Letting a pundit do your homework for you leads to brainwashing.

We are all brainwashed from the time we are born, the best clues I've ever gotten about mine came while stumbling over my givens, you know that stuff you just know is true, so fundamental you don't even think about it anymore, let alone reason over it. Take out your givens and laugh.

 

[ZeroRing]

It's not "fringe" or "nutjob" to expect the American government to abide by the constraints set forth by the Constitution.

I'll also add that thinking that it's OK to rework or disregard the foundation that our forefathers laid for our country makes you part of the problem.

Indeed.

And, I would rather the "title" of this thread had removed the "-Right" from it (there are "Goofy Fringe" folks on BOTH sides) because I think we can all agree that these folks are not doing anybody any favors.

Now as to the SIZE of the "goofy fringe" contingent on both sides of the spectrum and their potential for mischief... THEREIN lies the debate.

 

[ZeroRing]

The stupidity of thinking government should handle healthcare is a perfect example of people willing to give up their very lives and everyone elses to government. With private healthcare you have a buffer called government to regulate healthcare. Now it will be government deciding who lives and who dies.

And good luck suing the government with they botch the "job". Then again, it's pretty tough to sue anyone from six feet under.

 

[bugeye]

"This term patriot shouldn't be something so cheap, to many have paid the last full measure for it."

Maybe you should look who you stand with and what they stand for before you call others radicals. Our founding fathers were traitors to the Crown, stood against government to fight for freedom. Freedom shouldn't be voted away by lazy fools who want others to pay their way through life.

The stupidity of thinking government should handle healthcare is a perfect example of people willing to give up their very lives and everyone elses to government. With private healthcare you have a buffer called government to regulate healthcare. Now it will be government deciding who lives and who dies.

Ever wonder why your doctor ask if you own guns? Your answer was sent into the government with your health records. If you said yes then they can deny you care. If you said no and they check the records then they deny you care.
People get what they deserve.

jj

Good point about patriots, so you think tea baggers qualify for this title? I sure don't.
Your argument about lazy fools is rather vague, what are saying?

Government provides insurance for about 40% of the population now, medicare and medicade. They really don't have any death panels, we keep our elderly going for a long time. This new bill that passed has a public option insurance only for people not currently insured. Since the gov runs medicare with at least 12% greater efficiency then private insurance companies this costs us less. Private insurance participated in the early deal making on this new bill they are not being thrown away, I assure you.

Actually my doctor has never asked me if I owned guns and if he did I would say, 'since I'm not here for anything to do with bullets it's none of your damn business'. Your take on this unasked question seems rather paranoid.

 

[ZeroRing]

Actually my doctor has never asked me if I owned guns and if he did I would say, 'since I'm not here for anything to do with bullets it's none of your damn business'.

THAT is a good retort! I hope you don't mind if I "borrow" it next time my doctor asks me that question.

 

[Just Jim]

Good point about patriots, so you think tea baggers qualify for this title? I sure don't.
Your argument about lazy fools is rather vague, what are saying?

Government provides insurance for about 40% of the population now, medicare and medicade. They really don't have any death panels, we keep our elderly going for a long time. This new bill that passed has a public option insurance only for people not currently insured. Since the gov runs medicare with at least 12% greater efficiency then private insurance companies this costs us less. Private insurance participated in the early deal making on this new bill they are not being thrown away, I assure you.

Actually my doctor has never asked me if I owned guns and if he did I would say, 'since I'm not here for anything to do with bullets it's none of your damn business'. Your take on this unasked question seems rather paranoid.

The goal of the heathcare plan is single payer, ie the government will be the insurer when this is all over. The insurance companies just want to be part of government insurance to secure good government jobs for themselves when government takes over. Who else is going to run this new healthcare plan?

The government programs so far have shown huge fraud and abuse. Any private program with those kind of loses would have gone under years ago. Government has unending money so it doesn't matter to them how much failure they have.

Socialism is for the lazy. Hope that helps remove the vagueness.

The teabaggers only problem is they fight for freedoms that socialist losers will give away. While the cause of freedom is great the populace is going to have to live under tyrany for a while so it will burn in their souls what they have lost. Yet they will never admit responsibility for it.

Gun control is comming, right after they get control of you life with healthcare. Read a bit about how the Nazi socialist used American "progressive" ideology (healthcare) to take over Germany.

Make sure you tell you kids what you voted for, they will pay for it.

jj

Hey do you think the government is running the economy well? They caused the depression and they are spending your money to fix what they caused. What do you think healthcare is going to look like when they use the same private insurers you hate to run government healthcare????