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barrel length question

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by Kevatc, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Do I have to get a tax stamp if I wanted to get a 14.5" barreled upper if I had a 1.5" brake/compensator permanently attached?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Benihaus

    Benihaus Portland American

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    nope, 14.5 +1.5 = 16... gtg... just make sure the brake/comp is pinned before you install the barrel onto the weapon (if you want to be legal about it)
     
  3. coop44

    coop44 Tacoma ,WA Well-Known Member

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    14.5 + 1.5 = 15.5, you will lose a half inch screwing it on, this has come up before :laugh: plenty out there 2" long.
     
  4. Skang

    Skang WA Well-Known Member

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    To me, unless it's a SBR, not worth the extra hassle for less than two inches when you are comparing with 16" barrel. Also, if you like to work on your rifle, you are going to hate it.

    But yes, it's legal.
     
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  5. Ding

    Ding Lighter Side of Oz Active Member

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    To measure remove your firing pin from the bolt then drop a rod down the barrel and measure the rod and mark the spot where it sticks out.(it's how the boogie man measures the barrel length)..If it is 16" or more then your are good to go.You will have to perm.attach the muzzle device on any barrel by way of high heat silver solder or weld and pin, that is shorter than 16" or SBR it(200 buck stamp)...As long as the total length is 16" + you are safe if you don't want to go the SBR route..
    Added: To measure is with a upper receiver installed onto the barrel that is.
     
  6. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Thanks everyone. Not interested in a SBR. Looking at either a 14.5 " (+ break/compensator) or a 16" 300BLK upper. Based on what I have read it sounds like a 14.5 barrel would be good for unsuppressed use.

    What would you guys suggest for a 2.0" compensator/break/flash device without breaking the bank. Thinking I'd rather go the flash hider as I have heard muzzle breaks can make the gun louder.
     
  7. Bigfoot

    Bigfoot Clack Co. OR Well-Known Member

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    If it was mine I'd make the barrel OAL 16.25". It's not that I don't trust the honesty of ATFs agents, well, yeah I guess that it is.
     
  8. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    I just don't get how the 2" is going to effect the gun.
    Why do people do this instead of just usind a 16 + comp?
    When is that 2" going to make a difference in you mobility?

    Not saying you're wrong in doing it,just wondering why people bother
     
  9. PromptCritical

    PromptCritical Oregon City, OR Member

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    Don't really need to quibble about fractions of an inch. There are standard barrel and flash hider lengths so you don't screw up.

    Obviously, a 16" barrel is GTG with any (or no) flash hider.

    Liuckily for you, several options are there to bring a 14.5 barrel to length. First and foremost, DO NOT use a standard A2 flash hider sicne it isn't long enough. Most aftermarket flash hiders are long enough to do the job. YHM phantoms, Vortex, blackout, and such are good examples.

    Additionally, there are 14.7" barrels out there that allow a standard FH to be attached to make 16".

    BTW: There's always the issue of "constructive intent" too. Say you mail order your stuff. If you have the bare barrel and a non-registered lower, your could be prosecuted. Ain't this fun?
     
  10. PromptCritical

    PromptCritical Oregon City, OR Member

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    The standard M4 was developed without regard to NFA. Hence, that's the way it's supposed to be. Personally, the extra 16" isn't that big of a deal, but it does look funny.
     
  11. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I agree, unless you are going for the look of a true M4. I don't think it's worth the hassle though. What if I want a different muzzle brake/flash hider? What if I want to run a suppressor? What if I want that extra 30 yards of bullet fragmentation range (not very likely but who knows)?
    From the interwebs I have heard the ATF uses a 6' pry bar (yes 6 foot) to make sure your "permanently attached" muzzle device is really permanently attached. Of course they ruin the barrel in the process but they don't care, just like honey badger.
    Longer handguards like a midlength or even a dissy can make the barrel look shorter but still be legal and leave the muzzle open for other options if you want the look rather than the CAR length with that long pencil sticking out the end.
     
  12. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Could you site a law for us?
    How would you register a lower in Oregon or Washington?
    You know a "pistol" can have any barrel length ? And an unused lower can be used for either a pistol or a rifle.Doesn't matter (unless one had it sold to them as a pistol instead of AOW)

    BTW...Say you built a lower that you bought as AOW.Now you build an upper in a rifle configuration. And also a pistol length upper.
    Nothing is put together,so what would be wrong here?
    OK so you put a pistol buffer on the lower and the short barreled upper,or the rifle upper,doesn't matter.
    Still no problem.
    Then you make it a rifle,with a stock and vertical grip and 16"+ barrel.
    Now,with the gun never having been seen by any LEO officer or agent,or pictures posted on line,or the gun sold or traded to a dealer as a pistol or a rifle..............
    you decide to make it into a pistol.

    Have you broken laws? How would they be able to prosecute you if they never saw the weapon before and never knew what it was originally built as?
    Since you bought the lower as AOW?




    I have never done this as I do not have a pistol AR and never have had one nor would I advise such action in case you are being watched by the feds cause you talk in coffee shops too much.;)
     
  13. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully someone who knows more about the 300 Blackout ammo ballistics can chime in and correct me if I am wrong or misinformed.

    It's my understanding based on what little I've learned over the past few days that this round can completely burn its powder in a 9" barrel and that having a 16" barrel only adds a modicum of velocity depending a bullet weight/charge. In addition, the recommendations I've read suggest the gas length should be in the AR pistol and carbine range. My logic was that since this round really is a rather short distance round (internet sources say 300 yards) the additional velocity/accuracy that a 16" barrel might afford would really be lost on me since I am realistically only good enough to shoot to 200 to maybe 300 yards on a good day when I take my time and minute of torso at 50 yards if I am in a hurry. The part I am not sure about is if the distance from gas port to crown makes any kind of difference between a 14.5 and a 16" barrel on the velocity of the bullet. If it it's not that big of a deal and costs allow why not go with a shorter barrel?

    Now that I've written this and re-read your questions you are probably right that the 2" isn't a big deal and is just academic on my part.
     
    mjbskwim and (deleted member) like this.
  14. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Maybe a different powder is used for different loads? (as with most other calibers?)

    So you could engineer a load for any barrel you will be shooting.Take that question to the brilliant minds in the reload section

    I have just seen this many times before and often wondered if it was a good reason like yours or because the people wanted a "tactical advantage" with an OAL of the 14.5+flash hider for a shorter gun.
    You know,for the clearing of houses they will never do?
     
  15. coop44

    coop44 Tacoma ,WA Well-Known Member

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    If you are looking for a good deal in a comp, try a levang linear compensator. They have been around longer than most, and direct the flash and sound forward, not out. They can be had at brownell's for less than 30 shipped IIRC.

    BTW barrel length is measured from the BOLTFACE to the MUZZLE on a semi auto rifle, according to the batf. (not the firing pin)

    I personally think the difference in length is a non issue, I would prefer not to pin and/or weld on a barrel. It limits your options down the road, but that is just me.

    Video gamers worry about this stuff, along with the internet ninjas.
     
  16. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    All of these debates and concerns were conducted and settled years ago, albeit with a much simpler weapon: the Thompson Center Contender. You can own the carbine stock. You can own a frame. You can own a pistol barrel for it. (Even without owning a carbine barrel.) You break the nonsensical law when you assemble Stock, Frame, and Barrel. Disclaimer: I would no sooner commit this offense than rip a federally-mandated label off a mattress.

    The issue erupted once again (at an earlier,simpler time with an earlier, simpler weapon). Swedish Mauser Model 94 Carbines were imported with a barrel that did not meet the federal standard for length. Before they could be sold, a 1/2" end-cap was required to be welded to the tip of the barrel. I sincerely doubt (with personal experience NOT noted as evidence) these tack-welded caps would survive for an instant the aforemetioned breaker-bar test (once again illustrating the nonsensical foundation of the law). A third weapon (of even earlier manufacture) is another example: You can own a Colt's (or Uberti replica) percussion revolver, and the carbine stock, and assemble it, shoot it, and wave it around. It is perfectly legal. If you posess a conversion cylinder to allow cartridges, you break the law when you replace the (equally powerful and accurate and deadly) percussion cylinder with the cartridge one.

    Still another example of legal stupidity and inconsistency is the recent eruption of "mare's leg" lever-action carbines. (Persons old enough to recall the "Johnny Yuma The Rebel" television series are attracted to these.) Entirely legal, since they are manufactured as a "pistol". Yet, if a Winchester Model 92 Carbine is shortened to achieve the identical gun, it is a violation.

    Keep in mind, the prisons are full of persons who violated totally nonsensical laws.
     
  17. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    The reviews are really good on both Brownels and Midway. Curious if this could go on a 300 Blackout though?
     
  18. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Your mistrust is entirely unfounded. Unless you think for a minute that BATFE undercover agents would approach you knowing that you are raising your family in the mountains away from civilization (for your own personal reasons), and are aware that you are living on the financial edge to keep them warm and fed. They offer you an exorbitant sum of money for the simple operation of shortening a shotgun barrel. You finallly give in to their repeated entreatments and ever-increasing offers. They arrive later in force, and hide in the bushes on your property. When your dog alerts, they shoot him. When your son responds to the dog's alert and gunshot, they kill him too. As your wife goes to the front door and stands inside your house holding your infant child in her arms, they blow her head off. The gun you modified is later in court shown to be of legal length. None of this matters, because you have lost everything of true value in your life: all over a questionable fraction of tubular steel that would not even make a respectable fishing weight.
     
  19. PromptCritical

    PromptCritical Oregon City, OR Member

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    I don't recall if it is specifically law, but the ATF generally considers having all the parts to build an SBR without having a registered SBR as the same as actually assembling an illegal gun.

    Lowers are not registered. However, if one wants to build an SBR, one fills out a form 1 with all the required crap to make a SBR, then when approval is given, he gets the parts and builds the gun. The lower is the serialized part and is technically "registered" then.

    You cannot buy a lower as anything other than a lower. In order for it to be transferred as an NFA weapon it actually has to fit one of the NFA weapon definitions. A bare lower doesn't.

    Breaking the law and getting caught are two different things. What you're asking is "If I speed, but slow down before anyone sees me, was I speeding?"
     
  20. PromptCritical

    PromptCritical Oregon City, OR Member

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    Read the law. SBR includes weapons "made from rifles" too. And yeah, they are dumb.

    Also, I will say it again: The letter stating the legality of the Thompson/Center kits ONLY APPLIES TO THOSE KITS. If you do the same with an AR and point to those letters, the ATF and judges will say "So?". Now that the ATF has apparently expanded that interpretation to cover all guns we shoudl be ok, until the ATF changes their minds again.

    If you are going to do it with an AR, you MUST have all the important pieces. IE if you have a rifle and a short upper, you NEED to also have the pistol tube. If you can't demonstrate the ability to build a legal gun, you're screwed.

    Or, just build a registered SBR. then you can do whatever you want.