Backup gun?

[Blitzkrieg]

People say the loudest sound in a gun fight is when the trigger goes click and no boom but I have to say the sound of a locked back slide can be a sound maybe even worse than that. That is if you have no more ammo, no BUG, and you don't know for sure if the fight is over. Then what?? Where is another weapon!?! WTF now! lol something not a lot of people think about. Like Blitzkrieg said not every shootout is a pointblank stick up robbery. Not every shootout is 3 shots, 3 seconds, @ 3 AM. BUG, ammo, knife, flashlight, cellphone, bazooka, whatever, there is nothing worng with being prepared for the worst case scenario.

People who have actually been there usually wish they had been in an M1 Abrams

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I am familiar with front guns, but not backup guns. Won't they be hard to aim?

Best Bond movie of all time with the hottest Bond girl ever (The Golden Girl)

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I agree with GUNHUMMER. I think unless you're LE and on duty the idea of carrying two firearms on your person is pointless. My one firearm is fine when off duty, and I feel confident enough my in situational awareness and my hands and feet and elbows etc, to be compitent enough to keep myself out of trouble. Alot of people tend carry a firearm and use that as a handicap in regards to dealing with volatile sitations, however that is a false sense of security. It's a double edge sword my friend, that very weapon that is being carried by you at the end of the day is a WEAPON, and the only difference in who may get hurt is dictated by who's on the other end of the barrel. I'd advise you to maybe take some self defense courses Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Krav Maga. With training you'll learn valuable lessons in weapon retention etc, and just be more aware and confident. Hopefully this helped.

I teach JKD/MMAS and I often carry two handguns, and depending on where I am traveling, body armor and a rifle in the trunk with loaded mags in the case. Hand to hand does not stop bullets or drop bad guys who are shooting at you. I have seen the beast and will never go back to assuming that one gun is enough

 

[gunhummer]

I wasn't arguing against someone's wanting to carry a 2nd gun. I don't think I ever said "don't carry a second gun." You want to carry two? Carry two. I simply suggested one ask themselves why. I then provided an opinion on what I believed might be the 3 most common reasons one might consider it. It was not put forward as the definitive list. I even ended with if you have some other reasons I'd think about them.

I'm not trying to be a wise cracker here so please don't take it that way...

So far I haven't seen a compelling 2 gun argument for the 3 I listed except:

1) you still might run out of ammo because A) you don't know how your gonna shoot when the poop flies or B) you get into a drawn out shoot out at long range.
and
2) it still might break

I'll address these re-emphasized contingencies
1A) Training... train how you'll fight and you'll fight like you trained. It takes 2000 to 3000 repitions of a hands on defensive skill for it to become muscle memory. The same is true of your weapons skills. Lesser numbers can yield tolerable proficiency levels but the bottom line is the more you train the better you'll perform. If you buy a pistol take it to the range shoot a box of 50, put it in the night stand, and pull it out 3 years later when you hear the kitchen door kicked in and you're probably gunna punch your kitchen cabinets full of holes... Conversely... Shoot a thousand rounds a year for 3 years and when you pull it out in the dark it's going to go right where it did when you were training.... muscle memory, instinct,... your arm height, hand angle, it just happens.
1B) So it's true sometimes shoot outs happen at greater ranges than 5 to 10 yards (understand they are the exception) and cover works for bad guys too and you want to cover this eventuality despite its rarity? okay... answer... training. I'm trained to not sit there and exchange fire with a covered target. We're talking hand guns and I'm off duty and not wearing SBA. For me one of two things is going to happen based on the tactical situation I'm presented with and trading shots until I'm dry and my extra mags are spent is not one of them.... a) I'm going to make maximum use of cover and concealment to close with and destroy the enemy (I'm off duty) or b) I'm going to tactically redeploy away from the threat. If you don't like a) or b) and want an OK corral I'd suggest carrying even more mags. They're smaller and lighter than another fully loaded gun. And I'll get to my anchor point on this one momentarily.

For number 2. Yes it might break but I might get hit by lightning today but it's a freaking long shot and the overhead of maintaining an extra insurance policy in case that happens is not worth it to me. My CC is insurance for me. Not for going down dark alleys at 3 a.m., please I'm not Charles Bronson in an old vigilante movie looking for trouble... it's insurance for when I'm getting in my truck with my wife in the middle of the day in downtown Seattle after an afternoon baseball game and the bad guys fleeing from Seattle PD ditch into the bus at the stop 6 feet from my wife then bail out the back emergency window and one is narrowly apprehended on my hood. 6 more feet to get away does he try to take my wife or I hostage? He would have never made it. True story. They got the 2nd one out in front of the bus. Now I've heard what's the harm in carrying a 2nd gun. Could be none or could be very bad harm. My anchor point mentioned above for mags versus another gun is.... My number 1 reason for not carrying 2 guns off duty is... WEAPON RETENTION. I've yet to find a triple retention cc holster. It's not practical to wear my body armor off duty with the solid retention placement that those types of carries provide. Ankle rigs, shoulder rigs, pancake holsters, nice single retention beltslides, and filling my pockets with pistols just doesn't work for me and when things go to sh'''' they don't retain pistols for sh''''. And if I need to take the one I'm carrying out, it's in my hand and I don't need to worry about what's happening to a 2nd one and who might get it. If you lose a mag in a fight, the chances that it is going to hurt you are acceptabley remote. If they work for you... great. Don't stop.

3) I've also heard arming friends and family... this again supposes the more rare contingency that it's distant and/or with multiple assailants or a distant active shooter that you want to create a 2 person team to fire and manuever with. If this is your reason when all other measures have been achieved (training, training, hands on training and then more training), then do it. my only analysis is that I think the risk of weapon retention in other more likely encounters outweighs this single contingency.

I think one of the worst things for me, is reading about an officer that is killed with their own duty pistol. They have much more training than most civilians and yet sometimes lose it and I wouldn't want someone be put at greater risk because of less training and 2nd less secure weapon.

17 yrs of LE training and 22 years of military training... that's my analysis. Don't like it? I can agree to disagree. It's a forum. To me that's a place to exchange ideas. None of us is as smart as all of us. I'm cruising through this place to learn from others that have learned things I haven't yet and perhaps share some things with other in return.

Phathom is spot on with his knife and hands for his training and backup. I don't know squat about a knife except with 3 years of running a deck out of Westport to put myself through college I can filet a mean bass, gut a salmon, and I'm pretty fond of my cutplug herring too. But in a fight I don't want to end up like that poor character in the house near the end of Saving Private Ryan... so I keep one in my patrol vehicle for a cutting tool, not on me as a weapon I lack sufficient training to use proficiently. I'll stick with my hands, elbows, knees.

Another commented on my biggest concern for retention.

Back ups, back up plans, all have merits but don't forget to look at escape plans.

Now Blitzkrieg's trunked long gun, while not as frequently useful as a trunk monkey, could in some applications be a very sound option and my only comment to that is be aware of the extra responsibility of a firearm in an unattended vehicle and know the appropriate laws. Now camping, hunting, etc. I'm game. Routine day off running errands and taking the kid to baseball etc. I'll pass.

M1A1 is nice too. Maintenance sucks though.... breaking track, punching the tube, blowing the v-pack....so maybe an uparmored, dare I say... gunhummer?

Thanks for making this new found site an interesting place of exchange.
gunhummer.

 

[slideglider]

A .32 on the ankle/calve all the time is handy. It's something you can forget about (with the right pants) and not worry about. If a situation is involved where you had to take off your main carry weapon before entering somewhere, you still have something. A Keltec 32 on one leg and a spare 10 round mag on the other is hardly noticed. Mine has an Armalaser. It also keeps my socks up.

 

[greydog111]

Just suffice it to say, when it runs dry, 'Click' is the loudest sound you'll ever hear. Better to have a New York reload at hand than to fumble with the primary and posssibly not get up and running. Bang bang sounds better than click. Greydog.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Most people don't practice reloads or malfunction drills. Many because they don't know how or don't make the time. Those skills should be praticed but a BUG can be a very quick and easy solution.

In addition to a BUG I also carry an extra mag for my primary. Not for the extra ammo but for functional problems. The extra ammo is a bonus and could be an advantage.

Let's say we all have the same skill level. We all carry a service caliber gun 38spl/9MM or bigger as a primary. We train. We practice. Our situational awareness is on par.

Let's also say that those in the above category will have a 90% chance of a favorable outcome in a self defense situation.

But what about the other 10%? The other 10% that is left to chance or luck. The 10% where anything can happen. Do I prepare for that 10%? You bet. Hopefully chance or luck will be in my favor by doing so.

Carrying a BUG and a reload does not inconvenience me at all. So I might as well. And doing so just might be the advantage I may need.

It's not about paranoia. Doesn't matter if I'm in law enforcement or not. It's about being as completely prepared as I can.

 

[gunhummer]

Okay... I say uncle. There's some good food for both camps on this and the undecided can try 'em out. I appreciate the exchange.


gunhummer out.

 

[Kimber Custom]

M1A1 is nice too. Maintenance sucks though.... breaking track, punching the tube, blowing the v-pack....so maybe an uparmored, dare I say... gunhummer?

Don't forget MPG or should I say GPM and no parking garage will take you

I won't knock anyone who wants to carry a BUG. Personally I have a hard enough time keeping my britches hiked because I do carry an extra mag, flashlight, multi-tool, keys, cell, etc, etc. My wife jokes that my pants weigh 15lbs.

Like someone else pointed out the extra mag is for malfunctions and the extra rounds are simply a bonus. My objective is to survive the encounter. If the first shot or two do not end the attack the other rounds should be more than enough for a strategic retreat.

 

[BobSigP229R]

There is a lot of awesome advice on here. I carry two guns from time to time, just in case I get in a shoot out and need to throw my second gun to my buddy. Then we can flank the bad guys. But when I head into Seattle I take only my Sig and a second clip. I figure 25 rounds will be pleny. I practice drawing my pistol & aiming a lot, and changing mags. If a situation did come up I fear that the thought of the second pistol will complicate my thoughts too much. I do carry a Kershaw in a convient location, and know a little bit about knife fighting. A very little bit

 

[Kanewpadle]

There is a lot of awesome advice on here. I carry two guns from time to time, just in case I get in a shoot out and need to throw my second gun to my buddy. Then we can flank the bad guys. But when I head into Seattle I take only my Sig and a second clip. I figure 25 rounds will be pleny. I practice drawing my pistol & aiming a lot, and changing mags. If a situation did come up I fear that the thought of the second pistol will complicate my thoughts too much. I do carry a Kershaw in a convient location, and know a little bit about knife fighting. A very little bit

Training with a second gun or BUG is often overlooked. Of course it's hard to find a place to do such training with live fire. If you practice transitioning to a second gun, it to will uncomplicate matters.

 

[spengo]

I would really like a backup gun. It's a little embarrassing because I can never figure out how to tuck around my IWB if I'm supposed to dress nice for something so I have to leave my shirt untucked. It would be good to have a gun that can just go in the pocket with anything I wear. Full-size CZ-75 unfortunately just is not the ideal carry piece all the time. Also for EDC, it's as they say "two is one and one is none." What if my primary handgun goes down? Good to have something else just in case.

I could afford something like an LCP or p3at right now, but I never really liked either of those guns. The one I really want is the Sig P238 and I'd rather save until I can afford that rather than get a gun I don't really care for. I guess I could just sell it later... maybe I should do that.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Mechanical things break because that guy Murphy is still out there. Better safe than sorry. If one is good, two are better. Do we usually carry a spare tire?

 

[gunhummer]

I would really like a backup gun. It's a little embarrassing because I can never figure out how to tuck around my IWB if I'm supposed to dress nice for something so I have to leave my shirt untucked. It would be good to have a gun that can just go in the pocket with anything I wear. Full-size CZ-75 unfortunately just is not the ideal carry piece all the time. Also for EDC, it's as they say "two is one and one is none." What if my primary handgun goes down? Good to have something else just in case.

I could afford something like an LCP or p3at right now, but I never really liked either of those guns. The one I really want is the Sig P238 and I'd rather save until I can afford that rather than get a gun I don't really care for. I guess I could just sell it later... maybe I should do that.

If you don't mind changing guns and carry locations depending on time of the year and personal activities. I've found ankle holsters work in the dress attire setting. I don't like them for active wear but some on this thread seemed to have ankle carry dialed in. Shoulder holster with a sport coat also very snappy, just ask Sonny Crocket. Tubs always has the .38 in the ankle. I wear shorts and t-shirt alot so ankles, shoulder, IWB just aren't options most of the time for me.

I don't like to change my method of carry depending on my clothing so I went to the pocket. I don't mind switching guns as long as it's in the same place and it operates the same. Consistency and training. I switch between a PT 22 or a Walther PPK for a pocket gun. I don't like the .22 really but sometimes the Walther is a little heavy for some wear. Beretta has the Tomcat and similar in .25 and .32 but I'm not convinced :huh: they'd really do much more than the .22 minimags. So have been waiting for the perfect .380 pocket protection! Oh TCP where for art thou? I like the Ruger but I think Taurus learned from the LCP shortcomings and dialed it in a bit better. Got to get me one soon!

If I were in the two gun camp... I'd go double TCP. Primary in the pocket and backup in a PDA type case on the belt. By carrying two of the same you can streamline by only carrying one extra mag for use in either gun. If one gun tanks you can use that mag in the other gun as well, and both carry locations are completely compatible no matter what time of year or attire. I don't recommend going hollywood and using one in each hand Okay. I'm bored and had to try the faces out.

 

[NCW Ray]

I never carried a backup gun in my 33 years of Law Enforcement...lucky?...stupid?...probably a little of both. The only backup weapon I carried was a sypderco knife clipped to my weak side front pocket. Now that I'm retired, I still don't carry a BU other than a utility knife clipped to my weak side pocket.

Hopefully the gray matter between my ears will keep me from needing my concealed weapon in the first place.

I forgot to add: If I were to carry a BUG it would be a small revolver with the hottest load I could find for it. I figure if I need a BUG I'm probably having an "intimate moment" with a dirt bag and I would want to stuff it in his gut and pull the trigger until it was empty.