ATF seizes 30 toy guns

[TAT2D]

Maybe it isn't such a good idea for these copies to be this good?

Jack Spirko (TheSurvivalPodcast.com) had a point about practicing with a quality (weight, functionality) airsoft in the same model as the firearm you use. You can practice until the draw, safety and trigger, etc, are completely ingrained as well as setting up HD scenarios in a 'stage' in your garage -- and have your buddy sneaking around in a ski mask. Properly dressed, you both can practice right up to the point of pulling triggers. How about a 'wrestling for control' scenario -- with a loaded (airsoft) gun?

MrB

 

[chrisp74]

I think many of you are marginalizing this topic. There is no reason that a replica/training/airsoft need to be even remotely mechanically interchangeable with an actual firearm. I've read the vendors report of which Ar 15 parts do and do not fit inside or onto this receiver. The fact that the AR 15 upper will fit is enough for me. Anyone with any motive to make a trigger group fit into the lower and a few brain cells to rub together can make it happen with what looks like one drill bit and motor. Imagining a potential bad guy with bad intent, no amount of work is too much to keep their illegally obtained and potentially full auto a secret. I do not agree with sensationalist media bs as I have been a victim of such slander and conjecture so don't think I'm drinking their "cool aid".

 

[NWPilgrim]

So far it seems all conjecture. Has anyone ever done the alleged conversion? Is this a proven problem or just fantasy? Considering the ATF has prosecuted guys for having a machine gun because adding rubber bands and wire, etc could make it fire more than once indicates to me that the ATF does go on witch hunts.

I imagine that if any had ever converted these Airsoft guns to AR15/M16 it would have been front page on most newspapers and news sites. I don't recall a rash of such incidents. Also, I am sure the ATF would hold a press conference to demonstrate how easy it is to do such a conversion and what heroic work they have done to keep machineguns off the streets. They don't seem over anxious to brag about this one.

Of course they could just be quietly doing their job stopping violent criminals and it all just looks fishy.

 

[chrisp74]

So far it seems all conjecture. Has anyone ever done the alleged conversion? Is this a proven problem or just fantasy? Considering the ATF has prosecuted guys for having a machine gun because adding rubber bands and wire, etc could make it fire more than once indicates to me that the ATF does go on witch hunts.

I imagine that if any had ever converted these Airsoft guns to AR15/M16 it would have been front page on most newspapers and news sites. I don't recall a rash of such incidents. Also, I am sure the ATF would hold a press conference to demonstrate how easy it is to do such a conversion and what heroic work they have done to keep machineguns off the streets. They don't seem over anxious to brag about this one.

Of course they could just be quietly doing their job stopping violent criminals and it all just looks fishy.

Well if "Anyone" did do the conversion I don't think they'd be stupid enough to talk about it. If I was the atf I certainly would want a lot of publicity on how easy it is to manufacture your own untraceable AR. They've done their little video clips with the media and earned their cookies I'm sure. I don't know who's in the right on this one but, I do not want shipments of untraced lowers coming into the states. I love how the vendor keeps pointing to the easily modified clauses and saying it's not easy. One man's impossible is another's easy.

 

[supergenius]

Ive maybe "heard" of someone proving it can be done. But IF I knew it was true I sure as heck wouldnt say anything one way or the other...

Personally I wouldnt go that route... but whatever.. To think that government agencies dont go on "witch hunts" is rediculous. For petes sake how many times has ours proven it does just that...


My car makes 750 + HP out of 130 cu in... Some would say that isnt easy to accomplish, and I built the motor in my kitchen.....

 

[coctailer]

So far it seems all conjecture. Has anyone ever done the alleged conversion? Is this a proven problem or just fantasy? Considering the ATF has prosecuted guys for having a machine gun because adding rubber bands and wire, etc could make it fire more than once indicates to me that the ATF does go on witch hunts.

I imagine that if any had ever converted these Airsoft guns to AR15/M16 it would have been front page on most newspapers and news sites. I don't recall a rash of such incidents. Also, I am sure the ATF would hold a press conference to demonstrate how easy it is to do such a conversion and what heroic work they have done to keep machineguns off the streets. They don't seem over anxious to brag about this one.

Of course they could just be quietly doing their job stopping violent criminals and it all just looks fishy.

Doesn't matter.
ATF is a money-sucking leech on YOUR tax dollars. They will find ways to keep themselves busy.
"stopping violent criminals"???
How many violent criminals has the ATF stopped?

I'm struggling to think of one............

 

[Ragingpit]

someone was bored

 

[tac]

Here in the law-riddled UK we can have ANY Airsoft arm that we care to, WITHOUT the orange tip either.

Well, actually, I'm lying.

Although I am a registered firearms holder, with eighteen live firearms up to and including 7.62, 7.5 and 7mm, and could [if I could afford one], buy a .50cal anything, I am nevertheless prohibited from buying a gas-powered Airsoft replica after 1 October 2007.

Sure I can have my 13500 ft pound .50cal AI or Barrett, but I cannot have a 1 ft lb Airsoft....

UNLESS I am a registered 'skirmisher' as Airsofters are called here, or a registered member of a re-enactment organisation.

Hey, you just KNOW it makes sense, eh?

tac

 

[Oohrah]

I think the orange paint is merely for a quick ID for LEOs to be able to ID it not being a working firearm, and nothing to do with conversions. Although I can remember in the 40s and 50s zip guns being made from cap guns and car antennas. They also make some pretty ingenious single shots and AMMO in our max prisons. Knives are so common they aren't worth mention. Any of the home made types I wouldn't want to fire? Why would you, with ready made, that there has been a black market for stolen firearms for ever?

 

[2506]

Doesn't matter.
ATF is a money-sucking leech on YOUR tax dollars. They will find ways to keep themselves busy.
"stopping violent criminals"???
How many violent criminals has the ATF stopped?

I'm struggling to think of one............

This guy, maybe?
<broken link removed>

 

[NWPilgrim]

This guy, maybe?
<broken link removed>

Oddly this is the only indication of an actual arrest made by the ATF. I searched several sections of the ATF site and cannot find any information as to number of arrests made in 2009, let alone a break out of violent versus compliance arrests. In fact, on the entire ATF site the only specific enforcement numbers I can find have to do with the dramatic reduction in FFLs:

In 1993, the overall number of FFLs was approximately 284,000. By 2007, that number had declined to 109,000 total active licenses, indicating a decrease of 175,000 licensees. These numbers include licenses held for business purposes as well as those held by collectors of curios and relics.

A number of factors appear to have contributed to this decrease. The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993, known as the “Brady Bill,” increased the fees for federal firearms licenses from $10 per year to $200 for the first 3 years, and $90 for each 3-year renewal period. The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, referred to as the “Crime Bill,” enacted requirements that applicants engaging in firearms businesses notify the chief of their local law enforcement agency of their intent to apply for a license, submit their responsible persons’ photographs and fingerprints with their applications, and certify that their businesses would be in compliance with state and local laws, including zoning regulations. Following enactment of the new law, many federal firearms licensees who were not in compliance with local zoning ordinances chose to voluntarily surrender or not renew their licenses.

Additionally, in 2004, ATF implemented an in-person application inspection program. ATF industry operations investigators now conduct in-person application inspections with all new firearms business applicants. Through the inspection process, investigators verify the identity of the applicant, ensure the qualification of the person(s) intending to conduct business, verify the business premises, and review the recordkeeping and conduct of business requirements to assist the applicant in complying with the law and regulations. In addition to educating the applicant about regulatory responsibilities, these efforts encourage voluntary business practices that can prevent diversion of firearms from lawful commerce to the illegal market. ATF conducted over 5,000 application inspections in 2007, of which less than 15% were withdrawn or abandoned by the applicant or denied by ATF.

It is also instructive to note the transitory nature of FFL numbers. Each year, a significant number of licensees choose to voluntarily cease operations or fail to renew their licenses. For example, during fiscal year 2007, over 13,000 new firearms licenses were issued. However, during that same time period, the total number of licenses increased by just over 1,600 licenses.

Usually an organization dependent on legislative funding bends over backwards to document its performance such as number of arrests and convictions, and by type. They document one arrest of a violent criminal and note that FFLs were almost cut in half.

Strange. Maybe I am not navigating their site well.

 

[TAT2D]

Usually an organization dependent on legislative funding bends over backwards to document its performance such as number of arrests and convictions, and by type. They document one arrest of a violent criminal and note that FFLs were almost cut in half.

Perhaps that what (they believe) they're being scored on.

MrB

 

[CharlesAFerg]

If the lower is machined properly to accept a sear (evil third hole drilled) and it will accept a standard AR trigger group, and it is able to have a standard AR upper mounted on it, it would be easy to turn one of these into a machine gun.

No. Not only are airsoft guns built out of sub-quality metal, but you'd have to attempt to mount a gas system in there, recoil tube that would actually handle the force, the bolt assembly and bolt key won't even remotly fit, and that's not even mentioning the pressures involved. No way could this even remotely work. The ATF is going to be eating their words for this one for a long time, mark my words.

 

[eriknemily]

No. Not only are airsoft guns built out of sub-quality metal, but you'd have to attempt to mount a gas system in there, recoil tube that would actually handle the force, the bolt assembly and bolt key won't even remotly fit, and that's not even mentioning the pressures involved. No way could this even remotely work. The ATF is going to be eating their words for this one for a long time, mark my words.

Consider them marked

 

[cyclesarge]

No. Not only are airsoft guns built out of sub-quality metal, but you'd have to attempt to mount a gas system in there, recoil tube that would actually handle the force, the bolt assembly and bolt key won't even remotly fit, and that's not even mentioning the pressures involved. No way could this even remotely work. The ATF is going to be eating their words for this one for a long time, mark my words.

Have you seen the Bushmaster "Carbon" series guns? I don't think the lower needs to be all that strong, there is no gas system in the lower, the BCG and bolt key only need to fit in the standard AR upper which anyone can buy anywhere. If the receiver extension isn't strong enough I'm sure it could be upgraded fairly easily.

At the risk of sounding like an ATF cheer leader, I think these warrant further investigation, everyone here (and other gun sites) is freaking out because they are "airsoft" guns, but it's NOT the "airsoft" part that the ATF is concerned with, it's what they could potentially "be". If the DEA busted a company for smuggling in herion in bubble gum machines, would everyone be saying "Why is the DEA concerned with bubble gum? It just bubble gum!"
It may (and probably will) turn out that these are legit, but it should still be checked out.

 

[eriknemily]

Have you seen the Bushmaster "Carbon" series guns? I don't think the lower needs to be all that strong, there is no gas system in the lower, the BCG and bolt key only need to fit in the standard AR upper which anyone can buy anywhere. If the receiver extension isn't strong enough I'm sure it could be upgraded fairly easily.

At the risk of sounding like an ATF cheer leader, I think these warrant further investigation, everyone here (and other gun sites) is freaking out because they are "airsoft" guns, but it's NOT the "airsoft" part that the ATF is concerned with, it's what they could potentially "be". If the DEA busted a company for smuggling in herion in bubble gum machines, would everyone be saying "Why is the DEA concerned with bubble gum? It just bubble gum!"
It may (and probably will) turn out that these are legit, but it should still be checked out.

This may be true. But as I heard one person say, any person with a few tools and enough time and ambition could potentially make any gun an illegal one. The statute that the ATF is using to confiscate these airsofts says that these guns have to be 'readily convertible' to firearms. Given enough time and a few tools I'm sure these airsofts could be converted to using real ammo. Probably wouldn't be safe but certainly conceivable. I just wouldn't call them 'readily convertible'.

 

[NWPilgrim]

<broken link removed>

Martin admits it can be difficult to differentiate between an airsoft rifle and a real M4 assault rifle used by the U.S. Military.

"If you put it in someone else's hands who is not familiar with guns, they would probably have a hard time telling the difference," Martin said.

That explains it!

 

[CharlesAFerg]

Have you seen the Bushmaster "Carbon" series guns? I don't think the lower needs to be all that strong, there is no gas system in the lower, the BCG and bolt key only need to fit in the standard AR upper which anyone can buy anywhere. If the receiver extension isn't strong enough I'm sure it could be upgraded fairly easily.

At the risk of sounding like an ATF cheer leader, I think these warrant further investigation, everyone here (and other gun sites) is freaking out because they are "airsoft" guns, but it's NOT the "airsoft" part that the ATF is concerned with, it's what they could potentially "be". If the DEA busted a company for smuggling in herion in bubble gum machines, would everyone be saying "Why is the DEA concerned with bubble gum? It just bubble gum!"
It may (and probably will) turn out that these are legit, but it should still be checked out.

The receiver "shell" is not even remotely the same ineternally, let alone strong enough to become a firearm, let alone a machine gun, and you'd have to basically fabricate an entire firearm with existing (real firearm) parts, and fabricate from scratch the entire inner reciever. It's like turning a paintball gun into a real firearm, have you ever looked inside and/or held an airsoft gun?

 

[cyclesarge]

The receiver "shell" is not even remotely the same ineternally, let alone strong enough to become a firearm, let alone a machine gun, and you'd have to basically fabricate an entire firearm with existing (real firearm) parts, and fabricate from scratch the entire inner reciever. It's like turning a paintball gun into a real firearm, have you ever looked inside and/or held an airsoft gun?

I've looked at the $150 or so models, and they are no where near being "readily convertible". I've seen the videos of this model, and could easily see a Taiwan manufacturers production variance bring far enough "off" to warrant concern. Specially given the manufacturer's quest to produce the most realistic looking and feeling replica. Have you seen the confiscated airsoft guns?

 

[Paddy]

So basically you have to buy one of these fake guns, then buy a real machine gun and replace all the airsoft parts with real machine gun parts. Gotcha! It totally makes sense how these airsoft guns can be completely and mysteriously transformed into machine guns!

You buy the airsoft gun, then you throw it in the trash.

THEN you BREAK LOCAL, STATE AND FEDERAL LAW and ILLEGALLY buy a machine gun from some CRIMINAL!

Wait, what were the costs again?



I can only see this working if you were to completely ignore the airsoft guns in the first place, and become a Class III dealer and not break any other laws.