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ATF seizes 30 toy guns

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by ikari2_2000, Feb 27, 2010.

  1. ikari2_2000

    ikari2_2000 Seattle, WA Member

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    http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/n...ng-local-business/vUVs2QUCAUuZWeRrqgIQaA.cspx

    CORNELIUS, Ore. - A local business owner is flabbergasted after a shipment of 30 toy guns for his store was confiscated by ATF agents in Tacoma.

    Brad Martin and his son, Ben, sell the Airsoft BB guns from their store in Cornelius where they’ve been in business for seven years.

    The Martins said they buy their stock from Taiwan because the merchandise is less expensive. But the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives seized a shipment of 30 in October. That shipment is worth around $12,000 and the ATF is promising to destroy the entire shipment.

    Special Agent Kelvin Crenshaw said the toys can be easily retro-fitted into dangerous weapons.

    "With minimal work it could be converted to a machine gun," Crenshaw said.

    Brad Martin is furious about the loss of money, for sure, but also in what he now thinks as a loss of his time and the use of government agents to seize toy guns.

    "All this manpower, all this time, all this taxpayer money, [it is] wasting my time and my profitability,” Martin said. “[Just] to seize 30 toy guns!"

    Ben Martin disagrees that the toy guns could ever be considered dangerous.

    "To say these are readily convertible to machine guns is absolutely preposterous,” he said. “The round wouldn't go into the firing chamber and even if the firing pin did strike the primer the gun would basically blow up in your face.”

    ATF said it also seized the toys because they are missing the blaze orange tips required on all imported toy guns.

    The Martins said they've received shipments before from Taiwan that were missing the orange tips and were simply asked by customs agents to drive up to Tacoma and paint the tips orange themselves. They are wondering why it is an issue now.
     
  2. eriknemily

    eriknemily Tillamook County (Cheese!) Member

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    I heard about this on Lars Larson's show this week. What's hilarious is that a tv station up in Seattle reported this as 30 machine guns worth over $10k. Would anybody here be willing to purchase a machine for less than $400? :laugh:
    The media is so ignorant its almost revolting!!!
     
  3. phathom

    phathom Vancouver, WA Member

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    Wow, I wonder what kind of toy guns their talking about.
     
  4. ikari2_2000

    ikari2_2000 Seattle, WA Member

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  5. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    .... because if it looks like an assault rifle, it MUST be one.

    So if these are so easily converted... I must buy one.

     
  6. torpedoman

    torpedoman land of corrupt politicians Member

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    Give a small minded bureaucrat power and you have a tyrant
     
  7. trainsktg

    trainsktg Portland OR Well-Known Member

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    It looks like real crime fighting must be a bit slow at the local office.

    Keith
     
  8. gtslow

    gtslow Issaquah New Member

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    I'm sure they could make the same argument for any ar-15.
     
  9. 8ball

    8ball WA Quit talkin' and start chalking!

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    They seize these imported toys all the time because they lack an orange tip. This is the first time I've read about the ATF claiming they could be converted into firearms, but it was only a matter of time. There have been similar cases in China and Canada of alleged conversions of Airsoft into actual firearms.

    I've never really understood why some of the Airsoft manufacturers make toys that are very close to real firearms, to the point where they can use the same rails, sights, tactical gear etc (e.g. http://www.realsword.com.hk/gun_47S.htm)

    I can understand the desire from the Airsoft players to have authentic replicas, but for the importers surely they are playing with fire (ITAR).

    Although generally they are made with low quality steel and to less exacting tolerances, there are plenty of Airsoft guns made from forged mill steel in the same dimensions as the real firearms. Drop in a real barrel and some parts and....

    Still, I wouldn't want to be standing nearby if someone tried to fire a round in a converted Airsoft gun. :laugh:
     
  10. JumpWing

    JumpWing NK WA Member

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    No, no. It's VERY easy to convert one of these into a fully functioning machine gun. You only have to replace a few key parts (everything other than the trigger) and presto! you're ready to rock and roll.

    Yes sir. Dangerous stuff.
     
  11. candyman

    candyman Scappoose, OR Active Member

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    with alittle work you can make the lower match up with an ar upper
    add a lpk and you have a firearm with no paperwork

    but MG .... someone has there head up there ***
     
  12. Decker

    Decker My house Active Member

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    But the issue was that the tips were not painted orange, right? So unless they were supposed to paint the lower blaze orange the reasoning still doesn't hold up.

    -d
     
  13. candyman

    candyman Scappoose, OR Active Member

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    na they got held up cause they didnt have the blaze orange tips

    atf seized them cause they could be made into mg's
     
  14. NorthernBornRebel

    NorthernBornRebel Keizer Member

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    If the lower is machined properly to accept a sear (evil third hole drilled) and it will accept a standard AR trigger group, and it is able to have a standard AR upper mounted on it, it would be easy to turn one of these into a machine gun.
     
  15. cyclesarge

    cyclesarge Eugene OR, DUH! We're ALL in the NORTHWEST Well-Known Member

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    ?
    I don't know if this is bad reporting or they are paying $400 (wholesale?) for an AIRSOFT? From Taiwan? Cuz they're cheaper than somewhere else? I know Colt sold M16's to the military for $600 each (probably less at some point and more at another), so $400 for something that could be turned into a low quality machine gun make more financial sense than a $400 Taiwanese AIR SOFT.

    Also, I am not familiar with the function of airsoft, but it looks like the owner is admitting they have a "firing pin"? I'd definitely have to read more about his case before I'd make a judgement one way or the other.

    I notice a lot of the comments (from the original article) are citing that you can't convert a (non confiscated) airsoft into a firearm. Maybe the ATF messed up and they are trying to cover their butt's or MAYBE these weren't standard airsofts, the $400 (wholesale) pricetag make me suspicious.
     
  16. phathom

    phathom Vancouver, WA Member

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    That is a really expensive airsoft gun. I mean that's just ridiculous. Importing those at that price, you have to know they command that price because they have other uses. With that, it looks like you'd just have to mate up a trigger setup and bolt and grab a magazine and barrel to make it a fully functioning AK. I'm not sure how much I would trust it though.
    And it still doesn't make sense since you can pick up an AK47 for around $300-$400 already. Buying the toy version to create one out of it seems really retarded to me.
     
  17. Chee-to

    Chee-to Oregon Well-Known Member

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  18. SON*OF*LIBERTY

    SON*OF*LIBERTY Forest Grove Active Member

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    I am not usually one to post too much, however there are some gross exaggerations on this subject.

    I had the opportunity to personally work with a unit involved to get a valid sense of the units and the sudden import restrictions placed on them. As a hobby guntech (10+yrs) I appreciate air soft and took an interest in these as a very nice gas blow back replica.
    I found these no different than the thousands of these types of units already produced and imported. You can actually purchase one online at this moment.
    I personally have disassembled the WE M4, and an AR-Style Lower and compared side by side.
    Easily convertible and readily convertible under the law are two different things. I do not plan on stating anything more than my understanding of the facts, and am not planning on arguing interpretation of law.
    These units will accept an actual upper matted to them. However, that is not an NFA article. The cross pin mils on the lower receivers are not spec, and the inner diameter is off by 2mm as well. The secondary cross pin, is actual mock, and would need to be drilled, and the bolt catch region is completely missing to house the air soft pellet. The Lower receiver itself would require extensive modification in a machine shop in order to accept the standard lower parts kit.
    It would take a average gunsmith at least a day and a half, maybe two, to convert this to a competent weapon that will fire more than one round.
    At that point, we are back in the realm of regular manufacturing.
    They are replicas, by design, but not firearms in any logical sense of the term, and I personally did not find them to be readily convertible with my interpretation of the law.
    It seems to me, that a person so intended would have easier and cheaper methods of producing illegal firearms rather than importing air soft replicas to modify at 200-400 a piece with the cost of extensive machine shop labor.
     
  19. SON*OF*LIBERTY

    SON*OF*LIBERTY Forest Grove Active Member

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    I would also like to state that if you have not tried full auto, full metal replica airsoft at 500+ fps...then your missing out.

    It is a highly under rated sport.
     
  20. Wheeler44

    Wheeler44 SW Washington Member

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    Son*of *Liberty...Thanks for your input....May I ask....In your opinion, would the amount of machine time be greater or less than milling an 80% lower to accept an upper and trigger group, etc?

    I know very little on this subject ...

    Thanks...