National ATF: Nobody else can shoot your NFA weapon, even when you are present

[Longwalkhome]

I don't think the ATF will have agents hanging around the range waiting to catch someone. All they have to do is wait for the video folks just have to make of them shooting.

Folks are really dumb with phones.

 

[Toxic6]

I think the goal is to keep you from training and “normalizing” the idea of modern firearms with new shooters. Between the costs of ammo, unconstitutional “rules” (with massive penalties), and control of most major media forms and children’s “education” all they have to do is wait a couple generations and the majority of the population won’t even know or care their rights are gone. He’ll look at how it is already, brainwashed masses and all the confusion with rights, privileges, and wants vs needs (plus a few other things people seemed confused about like wether they have a wee-wee or hoo-hah ).

To back my theory up -one of my cousins kids got suspended and threatened with expulsion because he got caught reading a book about guns that I had given him while at school and they told him it was contraband. Got in trouble for reading a book…at school…like seriously? It’s jokingly called gun-porn but it’s not literal pornography

 

[Ben B.]

100%, you just misspelled “peasants”

AFT, I says.

 

[CountryGent]

For as long as I recall it was legal to do so. There are many ranges offering just that. (Suppose I'm glad we did the Trust thing.)

 

[CountryGent]

Good question maybe doesn't apply to FFLs?

FFLs can have "Responsible Persons" listed. How it applies with this latest, I can't say. But it is a thing and approval is similar to other licensing / registration.

 

[gmerkt]

I'll be darned. I thought renting time on a MG was one of the big draws at events such as Knob Creek.

 

[helloyatches]

Letting someone use your NFA Item under direct control does NOT constitute. a transfer.

A 01 FFL and up working on your NFA item Is not a transfer.
Just sign it out as a repair.

Somebody is making Sheet UP!!!

 

[Ginocide]

100%, you just misspelled “peasants”

Serfs at best.

 

[helloyatches]

Letting someone use your NFA Item under direct control does NOT constitute. a transfer.

A 01 FFL and up working on your NFA item Is not a transfer.
Just sign it out as a repair.

Somebody is making Sheet UP!!!

Same as this DOES NOT APPLY to 07's.. or above.

Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily Export Certain NFA Firearms (ATF Form 5320.20) | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

www.atf.gov

 

[helloyatches]

Same as this DOES NOT APPLY to 07's.. or above.

Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily Export Certain NFA Firearms (ATF Form 5320.20) | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

www.atf.gov

You are NOT Transferring ownership by letting someone else shoot your stuff.
AS LONG AS YOU ARE THERE if it's a private person.

Or you can be absent if another FFL is doing the repair.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/repair-nfa-firearms/download

"In order to avoid any appearance that a transfer has taken place, ATF strongly recommends that a Form 5 application be submitted for approval prior to conveying the firearm for repair"

Form 5 - Application for Tax Exempt Transfer and Registration of Firearm (ATF Form 5320.5) | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

www.atf.gov

They suggest a form 5.
form 5 is a transfer document.
,
"In order to avoid any appearance that a transfer has taken place, ATF strongly recommends that a Form 5 application be submitted for approval"

But it's not required.
Clown shoe's.....................

 

[helloyatches]

I'm not making this up. they say t
Not needed for a repair.
Only for Demo's where there is No responsible person present
Ect...
And it sure as heck isn't for a repair............

 

[helloyatches]

Demo, or rental..

 

[jamez]

You are NOT Transferring ownership by letting someone else shoot your stuff.
AS LONG AS YOU ARE THERE if it's a private person.

Don't shoot the messenger... I'm just providing the exact text from the ATF's faq... which is a direct contradiction to your above statement.

I 100% agree it's ludicrous and insane... but that's what it says.

 

[wired]

FAQ's are not laws.

 

[jamez]

FAQ's are not laws.

Yea.. but the wording of the law left it all in a vague gray area... it all depends on how the wording is interpreted. From the national firearm act:

SUBCHAPTER C - PROHIBITED ACTS
§ 5861 Prohibited acts.
It shall be unlawful for any person
(d) to receive or possess a firearm which is not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration

and...

Subpart B-Definitions
§ 479.11 Meaning of terms.
Transfer. This term and the various derivatives thereof shall include selling, assigning, pledging, leasing, loaning, giving away, or otherwise disposing of.

If you put a gun in someone else's hands do they "possess" said gun? Argument can be made either way... again I find the entire thing idiotic, just like the married spouse can't even know the combo to your safe... but do I want to risk the felony? hell no.. I have a wife and kids to feed.

 

[wired]

Yea.. but the wording of the law left it all in a vague gray area... it all depends on how the wording is interpreted. From the national firearm act:


and...



If you put a gun in someone else's hands do they "possess" said gun? Argument can be made either way... again I find the entire thing idiotic, just like the married spouse can't even know the combo to your safe... but do I want to risk the felony? hell no.. I have a wife and kids to feed.

Subchapter C doesn't apply at all.

A transfer is never handing someone a gun. This comes up every few months. Think of it more like transferring title on a car.

When in doubt look at case law. You wont find any.

 

[jamez]

Subchapter C doesn't apply at all.

A transfer is never handing someone a gun. This comes up every few months. Think of it more like transferring title on a car.

When in doubt look at case law. You wont find any.

It doesn't say transfer though it says receive or possess .. Depending on which outcome I wanted I could argue either way that you do or don't possess the gun when it's handed to you by the registered NFA owner standing a foot away.

And you're right, I've been searching and haven't found any examples of anyone being charged for such an occurrence.. but that doesn't mean they wont try/start now.

 

[wired]

It doesn't say transfer though it says receive or possess .. Depending on which outcome I wanted I could argue either way that you do or don't possess the gun when it's handed to you by the registered NFA owner standing a foot away.

And you're right, I've been searching and haven't found any examples of anyone being charged for such an occurrence.. but that doesn't mean they wont try/start now.

Thats receive or possess an unlawful NFA item. i.e. "a firearm which is not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration". Theyre talking about non registered machine guns etc.

 

[helloyatches]

Yea.. but the wording of the law left it all in a vague gray area... it all depends on how the wording is interpreted. From the national firearm act:


and...



If you put a gun in someone else's hands do they "possess" said gun? Argument can be made either way... again I find the entire thing idiotic, just like the married spouse can't even know the combo to your safe... but do I want to risk the felony? hell no.. I have a wife and kids to feed.

Possession requires transfer of ownership or control.
NOT USE.

While supervised, money, trade, gift or otherwise and the legal use and ownership is not relinquished,
unless the afore mentioned is or the purpose of ownership and transfer of ownership.

NO transfer has accrued under the use clause.

 

[helloyatches]

Any other 07/02's want to chime in that have been through the ringers?