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SOT's walk a thin line and follow laws to keep themselves out of jail. Jail sucks. I get what the "FreE MeN " crowd is saying but it seems to me some of them have had little exposure to the ATF or the NFA and do not know what they are capable of. I do. Ive seen friends go to jail over NFA charges and have had CI's attempt to incriminate ME personally. I will not advocate for nor participate in breaking of ATF rules , regs or the NFA . I could give a crap if something is unjust.
I get that. My ironic profile pic notwithstanding, I have a lot to lose. Sure, it's easy for someone living a hundred miles out in the desert to be a "free man" but it's not the same if you have a successful business and a high profile.

The other reason to keep your nose clean is that if you did ever have to defend your family with a semi auto rifle, of course the fed boys are gonna go over you with a fine tooth comb so unregistered bits are a lot bigger liability for me than an advantage.

But, if i ever sold my business i'd seriously consider getting my ffl/sot and i just may try to create a product that creates a potential legal battle for a pro-2a precedent.
 
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Again, nothing in the NFA, GCA or FOPA laws have "rate of fire". This whole argument will logically (riiight) hinge on what exactly "a single function of the trigger" as written in the NFA means.

Again, nothing is written in the NFA that requires a "deliberate finger release/pull to activate a trigger"

For a M16, M4 and classic machine gun types; it is really as simple as the sear tripping and not resetting until the burst cycle or the trigger resets.

But for the FRT type as far as I can see?
The sear and trigger gets reset mechanically after a single shot.
If that means a single function of the trigger has been achieved; then it is not a MG according to the letter of the law as written. Of course I am no lawyer, nor am I an ATF agent :rolleyes:
 
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What is this very solid argument.

not even close
I guess the court is going to decide that and we have to have to live by that decision. Thats that part of the constitution that comes before the 2nd amendment. You know the boring part where the courts decide the constitutionality of laws and government actions.

.Two issues with the FRT.

1. The pressure on the trigger is never released. Define pull or "single function". Single function done by the shooter? Shooter pulls trigger and doesnt release tension on the trigger. The trigger mechanism is doing some hokey sh!t on its own but the ATF is arguing that the shooter himself has pulled the trigger once for multiple shots. Machine Gun.

2. The "trigger bar" is a safety sear. Keep the hammer , by way of the trigger, from releasing until the bolt closes. Tha ATF has long considered safety sears to be full auto capable. Because they are.
 
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I guess the court is going to decide that and we have to have to live by that decision. Thats that part of the constitution that comes before the 2nd amendment. You know the boring part where the courts decide the constitutionality of laws and government actions.

.Two issues with the FRT.

1. The pressure on the trigger is never released. Define pull.

Show me where in the NFA, GCA,FOPA does it say "a pull" or "release pressure on trigger". Because I cannot find such in Fed laws. Only the "single function of the trigger".

The "trigger bar" is a safety sear. Keep the hammer , by way of the trigger, from releasing until the bolt closes. Tha ATF has long considered safety sears to be full auto capable. Because they are.
Citations please.
 
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Show me where in the NFA, GCA,FOPA does it say "a pull" or "release pressure on trigger". Because I cannot find such in Fed laws. Only the "single function of the trigger".


Citations please.
Again, It will be in the courts that that gets decided. I'll bet real money they rule it a machine gun.

How many guns are there with safety sears that are allowed for sale ? I can think of two. Want to take a guess what they are? Another term for safety sear is auto sear.
 

Will_White

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The bumpstock battle was a simple case of executive over reach. Bumpstocks are not machineguns. The FRT stuff? There is a VERY solid argument that they are.
Again I think that's the point. Bumpstocks the courts might decide that's not a machine gun, NFA still stands. With this they either decide that this isn't a machine gun (win), that it is a machine gun but the NFA is unconstitutional because of US v Miller (2A protects weapons useful to militia service), or that it is a machine gun and subject to the NFA which is still constitutional (no change), so it might help us and can't really hurt us. Either way I think their going to put as many as they can into circulation before they get shutdown. Hopefully without keeping records.
 
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Again I think that's the point. Bumpstocks the courts might decide that's not a machine gun, NFA still stands. With this they either decide that this isn't a machine gun (win), that it is a machine gun but the NFA is unconstitutional because of US v Miller (2A protects weapons useful to militia service), or that it is a machine gun and subject to the NFA which is still constitutional (no change), so it might help us and can't really hurt us. Either way I think their going to put as many as they can into circulation before they get shutdown. Hopefully without keeping records.
They will rule it is a machinegun and subject to the NFA. There will be no broader ruling. This court doesnt do broad rulings. The only people it will hurt are the people who bought one because they will have to surrender them or do some quick splainin'. I had 6. I have two now. Sold the others cash. When they ATF comes to my door , and they will...again...That is what they;ll hear unless I sell the other two whilst it is still legal to do so
 
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They will rule it is a machinegun and subject to the NFA. There will be no broader ruling. This court doesnt do broad rulings. The only people it will hurt are the people who bought one because they will have to surrender them or do some quick splainin'. I had 6. I have two now. Sold the others cash. When they ATF comes to my door , and they will...again...That is what they;ll hear unless I sell the other two whilst it is still legal to do so
The real question is if they will prosecute those that sold them. If they determine it a machine gun, you would have sold 4 machine guns?!? o_O
 
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The real question is if they will prosecute those that sold them. If they determine it a machine gun, you would have sold 4 machine guns?!? o_O
Thats always a possibility but ex post facto comes into play. Theres 10,000 or more of these things out there maybe more. All over gunbroker , gun shows etc. Lots of third party cash sales.
 
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Thats always a possibility but ex post facto comes into play. Theres 10,000 or more of these things out there maybe more. All over gunbroker , gun shows etc. Lots of third party cash sales.
What’s the going rate these days?
 
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Again I think that's the point. Bumpstocks the courts might decide that's not a machine gun, NFA still stands. With this they either decide that this isn't a machine gun (win), that it is a machine gun but the NFA is unconstitutional because of US v Miller (2A protects weapons useful to militia service), or that it is a machine gun and subject to the NFA which is still constitutional (no change), so it might help us and can't really hurt us. Either way I think their going to put as many as they can into circulation before they get shutdown. Hopefully without keeping records.
This is the exact point: a win is a win, but a "loss" is a draw.

At worst it's a waste of time, and people that bought one wasted $400.

At best, we move the ball forward on defeating the NFA.
-Maybe we get SCOTUS-approved "not-a-machinegun" fast-boi triggers... WIN.
-Maybe SCOTUS does a middle-of-the-road decision and rules that FRT is an MG but that feds have to provide a reasonable route for civilian FA ownership: then dealers can sell new MGs with a tax stamp just like suppressors... still a win.
-Maybe entire NFA gets called into question by SCOTUS. big WIN.
-Maybe the case is a loss but now a million gun owners start caring about defeating the FA ban.... still a win.

-maybe 10 million FRT triggers (and knockoffs) flood the market and ATF can't enforce MG rules and normie republicans take up the issue.... win.
 
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That's a lot of maybe's . Want a more likely? Never gets close to the Supreme Court. Maybe makes it to appeals and gets shot down at appellate. SCOTUS declines the case if it's appealed again. Nothing happens other that buyers are out 400 bucks and 10k stay in circulation.
Universal NFA is the gun control they all want. Courts included. It's not going anywhere.
 
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That's a lot of maybe's . Want a more likely? Never gets close to the Supreme Court. Maybe makes it to appeals and gets shot down at appellate. SCOTUS declines the case if it's appealed again. Nothing happens other that buyers are out 400 bucks and 10k stay in circulation.
Universal NFA is the gun control they all want. Courts included. It's not going anywhere.
Why are you so emotionally invested in failure?

We have to challenge these bad gun laws, even if we don't win this time. We must keep trying until we win.

We will get 50 state shall-issue carry permits. We have already expanded CCW exponentially over the last few decades.

Silencer ownership has expanded exponentially as well.

We're gonna get our legal, new production MGs back.
 
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When it happens, please rethink your entire worldview.
More likely youre going to see a massive expansion of the NFA over the next decade or two to include braced pistols ( definitely. Maybe similar to the $5 AOW tax ) semiautomatic "assault weapons" and potentially even handguns .
 
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This is the exact point: a win is a win, but a "loss" is a draw.

At worst it's a waste of time, and people that bought one wasted $400.

At best, we move the ball forward on defeating the NFA.
-Maybe we get SCOTUS-approved "not-a-machinegun" fast-boi triggers... WIN.
-Maybe SCOTUS does a middle-of-the-road decision and rules that FRT is an MG but that feds have to provide a reasonable route for civilian FA ownership: then dealers can sell new MGs with a tax stamp just like suppressors... still a win.
-Maybe entire NFA gets called into question by SCOTUS. big WIN.
-Maybe the case is a loss but now a million gun owners start caring about defeating the FA ban.... still a win.

-maybe 10 million FRT triggers (and knockoffs) flood the market and ATF can't enforce MG rules and normie republicans take up the issue.... win.
I didn't actually buy my FRT trigger to use it, I wanted to help fund the fight with the ATF

My FRT trigger is still in the box in my safe
 
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