ATF Intimidates Gun Owners with Home Visits

[mjbskwim]

So basically,we need to have all the current gun laws on file at our door and have video cameras set by the door to film it when they come to our door?

Don't like where this is going.

 

[Riot]

Ok, shooting at the ATF=suicidal.

But this:

Are you serious? If you let ANY law enforcement entity into your home without a warrant you are a fool. From the instant they walk in, anything they see or claim to have seen is legal evidence that WILL be used against you. If nothing else it will be used against you to pressure you into doing something for them or to pressure you into pleading out to some BS charge.

Getting a warrant is not automatic. If they were interested in snooping around your home and had evidence to GET a warrant, they would have showed up with one.

Unless I'm a witness to a crime or reporting one, I don't' talk to the police. If I'm asked in any way about anything tht even remotely smells like I might be suspected of something, I don't say anything at all.

Your attitude just encourages misbehavior. "If you have nothing to hide, what are you worried about?" is how tyrannies gain momentum.

What you tolerate you encourage. What you put up with, you deserve.

Very well said on all accounts. I can just imagine you letting in some liberal, anti-gun ATF agent in your house claiming basically everything is illegal. Like if I had a pistol, upper AR-15 next to an AR-15 rifle receiver (not connected, just sitting next to each other) all of a sudden I'm noncompliant with an NFA firearm and my guns are confiscated. A lot of laws bear interpretation from the enforcer...just like with the shoe sting on the rugar mini-14. Why leave your rights to the interpretation of an overzelous governemnt agent? You have the right to say "I do not consent to any search" and slam the door in his/her face.

 

[Misterbill]

Legally, it would seem that if you let them look without a warrant, & they found anything, it would be inadmissable in court?

Wrong answer. If they have a warrant they have to specify in general what they are looking for. And other evidence (it has to be wholly unrelated to anything mentioned in the warrant) cannot be used as evidence.

BUT, once you let them in, ANYTHING they see or allege to have seen is admissible in court. Further, they can use what they allege to have seen in your house as "exigent circumstances" to justify a warrantless search, or to hold you while they then obtain a warrant.

There is NOTHING GOOD that is going to happen to you from letting the police into your house. Even if you have nothing to hide, Even if you are innocent. The cops are not your friend. They are independent investigators looking to file charges on people for committing crimes. They may or may not be nice guys, but they aren't on your side. They are on THEIR side. Any cop worth a tinker's damn will be happy to admit that to you. I have known enough cops and other LE officials over the years to know that they are NOT on my side. Failing to grasp that has cost a lot of good people their freedom or their fortunes defending BS charges.

 

[Riot]

Wrong answer. If they have a warrant they have to specify in general what they are looking for. And other evidence (it has to be wholly unrelated to anything mentioned in the warrant) cannot be used as evidence.

BUT, once you let them in, ANYTHING they see or allege to have seen is admissible in court. Further, they can use what they allege to have seen in your house as "exigent circumstances" to justify a warrantless search, or to hold you while they then obtain a warrant.

There is NOTHING GOOD that is going to happen to you from letting the police into your house. Even if you have nothing to hide, Even if you are innocent. The cops are not your friend. They are independent investigators looking to file charges on people for committing crimes. They may or may not be nice guys, but they aren't on your side. They are on THEIR side. Any cop worth a tinker's damn will be happy to admit that to you. I have known enough cops and other LE officials over the years to know that they are NOT on my side. Failing to grasp that has cost a lot of good people their freedom or their fortunes defending BS charges.

Finally, a breath of fresh air...

Sound advice on how to deal with encounters with law enforcement without an anti-LEO spin on it! You hear that ladies and gents, you can enjoy your freedoms, still be a gun nut and not have to shoot a single cop doing it! Lets hope it stays that way!

 

[Father of four]

There is NOTHING GOOD that is going to happen to you from letting the police into your house. Even if you have nothing to hide, Even if you are innocent. The cops are not your friend. They are independent investigators looking to file charges on people for committing crimes. They may or may not be nice guys, but they aren't on your side. They are on THEIR side. Any cop worth a tinker's damn will be happy to admit that to you. I have known enough cops and other LE officials over the years to know that they are NOT on my side. Failing to grasp that has cost a lot of good people their freedom or their fortunes defending BS charges.

I believe for the most part that is true.

I wish it wasn't.

 

[RVTECH]

It's a sad state of affairs, but we're pretty much to the point where anyone with any sort of badge of authority is an enemy of humanity until proven otherwise. I guess they assume the same of us unwashed masses. What a mess.

Pretty much sums it up but my question is how did it come to this?

 

[Gunner3456]

Pretty much sums it up but my question is how did it come to this?

Just ask yourself what type of personality would be attracted to having a lot of authority? What type would be attracted to having a red light and siren and badge and gun and handcuffs and a ticket book? What type of personality would pull a very poor 70 year old woman over for making a "California stop" at a stop sign and write her a $250 ticket? Could you do that? I couldn't. What type of personality would be attracted to driving around in a marked squad car for all to see?

What type of personality would then run like **** when the Watts riots happened, leaving the good citizens to fend for themselves?

If you really need an answer, it's a bully.

 

[Dresden]

Not all members of Law Enforcement are bullies, just like not all members of this forum are D-bags. However if a member of law enforcement wants to enter my home he needs to have a search warrant in hand. Should an ATF agent ask to enter my home i would POLITELY refuse to let him in, there is no reason to be rude or disrespectful unless that is the attitude he brings with him. The men and women of the ATF are for the most part just people doing a job, now like all groups you will find a few bullies, morons, and D-bags, but if they ask politely and with a bit of respect i will treat them the same. This is how i deal with all LEOs start with a good attitude unless they start with the BS. I for one will not just spew the anti government/police crap that so many others on this forum use i have found that if you give these men and women a little respect you for the most part get it back. Instead of being a prick the next time you deal with a cop try being nice you would be amazed at the results.

 

[Gunner3456]

Anyone who comes to my home flying the flag of authority, and asking for an illegal search of my home (illegal unless I'm dumb enough to give permission) is by definition a bully. That person knows the law and is hoping to trick or intimidate me with that badge.

I would be polite, though. No reason not to unless they got physical which I don't think they would.

 

[Father of four]

Not all members of Law Enforcement are bullies, just like not all members of this forum are D-bags. However if a member of law enforcement wants to enter my home he needs to have a search warrant in hand. Should an ATF agent ask to enter my home i would POLITELY refuse to let him in, there is no reason to be rude or disrespectful unless that is the attitude he brings with him. The men and women of the ATF are for the most part just people doing a job, now like all groups you will find a few bullies, morons, and D-bags, but if they ask politely and with a bit of respect i will treat them the same. This is how i deal with all LEOs start with a good attitude unless they start with the BS. I for one will not just spew the anti government/police crap that so many others on this forum use i have found that if you give these men and women a little respect you for the most part get it back. Instead of being a prick the next time you deal with a cop try being nice you would be amazed at the results.

Care to share that crap you have heard us spewing?

 

[Swedish K]

You know its shocking what the ATF can sell to a judge as justification for a warrant. A friend in Nevada does the gun show circuit from time to time and sells things that don't require an FFL - things like M60 and M249 parts that don't require a serial number, or less than 80% complete "gray items". Earlier this year he sold a M249 SAW sheet metal channel and an M60 channel to an undercover ATF agent at a gun show. There is nothing illegal about buying, selling, making these items, yet this new agent apparently thought that they were illegal and sold this story to a judge who signed off on a warrant and this is the result: ATF & FBI Execute Search Warrant

As it turns out they found nothing illegal and they spent the entire day at his house and closed off the street while they were there. A neighbor said that the pizza delivery guy brought a stack of pizzas 4-5 feet high for the raid team that showed up - all on the word of an agent that told a judge erroneously that he sold them illegal weapon receivers.

So a judge decided to issue a warrant because he believed an ATF agent that didn't know the difference between a legal and illegal firearm part. I personally can't blame the judge in this situation - he had the "experts" on firearms issues tell him that the parts were illegal. My question is did the "wet behind the ears" agent get approval for this operation from his supervisor or did he just run with his zealous belief that he was going to make headline news and launch himself on the career fast track. If the supervisor was supporting this it is apparent all the field agents from that office need some serious training on what the laws are and how to tell the difference between legal and illegal items. Perhaps they should have contacted their own firearms technical branch before making accusations and spending tens of thousands of tax payer dollars on the hopes that they could get some good publicity.

One of the most entertaining things that happened was they told him he had to leave while they did the search and they would call him when he could return but they didn't want him to take his cell phone. He pointed out that they couldn't call him if his phone was in their possession and they had to call a supervisor for approval before they would let him have his phone, an item that was not on the warrant.

 

[Felt Lizard]

It's a sad state of affairs, but we're pretty much to the point where anyone with any sort of badge of authority is an enemy of humanity until proven otherwise. I guess they assume the same of us unwashed masses. What a mess.

Pretty much sums it up but my question is how did it come to this?

The owners of this country pit citizens against one another as a distraction while they revel in the wealth of the nation.

 

[Riot]

Just ask yourself what type of personality would be attracted to having a lot of authority? What type would be attracted to having a red light and siren and badge and gun and handcuffs and a ticket book? What type of personality would pull a very poor 70 year old woman over for making a "California stop" at a stop sign and write her a $250 ticket? Could you do that? I couldn't. What type of personality would be attracted to driving around in a marked squad car for all to see?

What type of personality would then run like **** when the Watts riots happened, leaving the good citizens to fend for themselves?

If you really need an answer, it's a bully.

Listen to you...you ask who would write a 70 y/o a ticket but if you got nailed by the same who just got let off with a warning you'd be the first to sue the department for not getting this unfit driver off the road!

I think this video explains it best...

Everyone gets pissed off when cops stereotype people (race, age, gender, ect.)...types of cars and areas of the neighborhoods. Having said that, is it fair to stereotype police?

Facts: Not all police are bullies. Not all even most cops are bullies.

Lots of people try to be cops to help out others. Do you want to carry a gun because you just want to have the power shoot people? I heard one guy state that "people who carry guns are people who don't know how to fight." Does this mentality ring a bell? A blanket generalization (i.e. a stereotype) against a specific group? You starting to see the hypocrisy yet? No? Then I don't mind adding another anti-leo tard to my ignore list.

 

[Gunner3456]

Listen to you...you ask who would write a 70 y/o a ticket but if you got nailed by the same who just got let off with a warning you'd be the first to sue the department for not getting this unfit driver off the road!

I think this video explains it best...

Everyone gets pissed off when cops stereotype people (race, age, gender, ect.)...types of cars and areas of the neighborhoods. Having said that, is it fair to stereotype police?

Facts: Not all police are bullies. Not all even most cops are bullies.

Lots of people try to be cops to help out others. Do you want to carry a gun because you just want to have the power shoot people? I heard one guy state that "people who carry guns are people who don't know how to fight." Does this mentality ring a bell? A blanket generalization (i.e. a stereotype) against a specific group? You starting to see the hypocrisy yet? No? Then I don't mind adding another anti-leo tard to my ignore list.

Please, please add me to your ignore list. I feel so relieved. One less tard to get responses from.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

Guys, please don't insult those members of the population that aren't as mentally sharp as the norm. They have nothing to do with people on the internet who can't debate without getting ruffled and slashing out at others.

Now that we've got that out of the way...The ATF is also the organization that brought us Ruby Ridge and Waco...as well as many other incidents. There are even websites dedicated to the abuses of the ATF. It isn't a new idea....

I've never had anything but good luck with them, however, but I've never dealt with anyone but the desk jockey types on the phone, not the street level "investigator" types out there "in the trenches".... I will say, though, that since I have a C&R, if the ATF shows up at my door, I MUST let them in....one of the disadvantages of having a license. But, like I said, I've never had anything but good luck with them.

 

[Partsproduction]

Crappy states I wouldn't want to live in anyway due to the crime and populace idiocy.

I love Arizona, except for the heat. The people in most of the state are much more conservative than here in the Northwest. I hate living around so many libtards, but it's hard to move a business, I'd rather help convert Oregonians away from idiotic liberalism so this beautiful state would be liveable.