National ATF Continues Rogue Assault on Common Pistols, Rule of Law

[Alexx1401]

Boy, that's the truth
If ever there was an example of "Be careful what you wish for..."

The kind of sad part is as soon as the people they voted for start doing stuff to go against rights, as all with a brain know they will, the people who voted for them will blame everyone else. It is both sad and amazing to watch.

 

[Paolung]

Koresh was a POS
But the ATF's desire to put on a big show is what caused the deaths of those people. Like I said before, they could have grabbed Koresh anytime they wanted but instead the ATF leadership wanted an extravaganza. A spectacle.
And what they got instead was a massacre. Had they just arrested Koresh while he was jogging,, they could have stopped his molestations and maybe those people would still be alive

Had Koresh let the women and children and whomever else he put directly in harm's way out, maybe those people would still be alive as well.

Had he not ordered his followers to douse the compound in kerosene and brainwashed them with his apocalyptic nonsense, maybe those people would still be alive.

Koresh was their supreme cult leader and responsible for their safety.

We both agree that the ATF botched things up pretty good, but there's no doubt in my mind that Koresh was the one responsible for every one of those deaths, ultimately. Many of the survivors feel the same way.

Agree to disagree?

 

[Wood Worker]

Koresh and his followers set that place on fire. He was the scourge that killed those women and children.

Site your sources.

 

[Patriot1775]

Koresh and his followers set that place on fire. He was the scourge that killed those women and children.

Sorry. The ATF shot first when they came out to talk. Sounds like Soviet Russia to me. I've watched enough documentaries and interviews of survivors of Waco. The Government goons went in looking for a fight.

 

[Wood Worker]

Had Koresh let the women and children and whomever else he put directly in harm's way out, maybe those people would still be alive as well.

Had he not ordered his followers to douse the compound in kerosene and brainwashed them with his apocalyptic nonsense, maybe those people would still be alive.

Koresh was their supreme cult leader and responsible for their safety.

We both agree that the ATF botched things up pretty good, but there's no doubt in my mind that Koresh was the one responsible for every one of those deaths, ultimately. Many of the survivors feel the same way.

Agree to disagree?

Really, asking for sources for anything that you have said while trying to divert this thread.
I can see that your online, and I know that you are not speaking the truth.
This is a discussion on the ATF and their assult on the 2A, pistols to be precise.
I am being as excellent as I can toward you.

 

[Legion489]

Pretty much what I was going to say "Hey Pao! Let's see some proof!" You know, like the Congressional Hearings as proof, which didn't have ONE WORD about what you claimed about Dave Koresh! "Child molester"? Show the proof! Nut? He might have been, but show me any proof what so ever! The ONLY "proof" was the founder's loser son who got kicked out for... mmmm, exactly what you are accusing Dave of doing, who lead a squad of goons in to attack the compound and kill Dave, but got their butts kicked and ended up in prison.

Dave went for a jog every morning, could have picked him up any day of the week along side the highway. The local sheriff was often at the "compound" and allowed in any time he wanted to look around, talk to the kids, health inspector, building inspector, NONE had a problem! They knocked on the door, "hi, come on in, help yourself, look around, ask if you need anything." Per Congressional hearings.

Show me the proof or shut up!

As to Don being anti-gun, Donald is neither pro-gun or anti-gun, he doesn't care one way or another. His SONS ARE pro-gun however. Of course the people who hate Don for not being "pro-gun enough" would have preferred to see Hilary in office instead. SHE sure has strong feelings about our 2nd Amendment rights!

By the way, the 2nd Amendment grants us NOTHING! Go read it! By being born, GOD (or as Joe put it "the thing, you know, the er... ah...the thing". Probably afraid he'd catch fire if he said the "G" word) already GAVE you the Right to life, liberty and PURSUIT of happiness. It DID not say "you have a right to be happy", only the pursuit of happiness AND you already have 2nd Amendment Rights WHICH THE GOV'T CAN'T TAKE AWAY! They can't TAKE them away, but Pao and the like are free to GIVE them away! And Biden and Harris are happy to take them from us whether we want to give them up or not. With traitor Billy Barr leading the way, hoping for his office under Biden.

If we allow the vote scam to keep going (go read the book "VOTE SCAM", old, but well worth reading and just as good now as it was then) then Don will be out of office, Biden will get (voted scammed) in and the "right to vote" will be the same as in any other 3rd world pest hole, "vote for who we tell you or get shot!'' Rule of law? More like rule of jackboot stomping on your face, forever! (To paraphrase Adux Huxley).

Well the US has been a REPUBLIC, not a "democracy" for nearly 250 years, that's a pretty good run for any country to last without being overthrown, replaced, becoming a dictatorship, or whatever. Guess we will find out which it is in a month or two.

 

[GWS]

Had Koresh let the women and children and whomever else he put directly in harm's way out, maybe those people would still be alive as well.

Had he not ordered his followers to douse the compound in kerosene and brainwashed them with his apocalyptic nonsense, maybe those people would still be alive.

Koresh was their supreme cult leader and responsible for their safety.

We both agree that the ATF botched things up pretty good, but there's no doubt in my mind that Koresh was the one responsible for every one of those deaths, ultimately. Many of the survivors feel the same way.

Agree to disagree?

Fair enough

 

[American123]

I'm not saying ATF didn't botch the raid or that there weren't serious mistakes made. The initial investigations were bungled, Reno should have been fired or force to resign, and the truth about the entire affair still isn't fully known (and probably never will be).

But Koresh was a child raping cult head who literally planned mass suicide and what happened at that compound was entirely consistent with his apocaplyptic vision and teachings. Good riddance to that man.

The suffering of his followers - the innocent ones, at least, and the children, is tragic. A 3 year old's body was found and they had been stabbed through the chest.

Now, as bad as the ATF screwed things up - does anyone believe an agent of the United States government (from any agency or the military) did such a thing? Stabbed a 3 year old through the chest?

It was a clusterf*ck.

'The government couldn't do something like that' - Study history much?

 

[Paolung]

Site your sources.

Survivors of 1993 Waco siege describe what happened in fire that ended the 51-day standoff

The Branch Davidians had barricaded themselves in their compound outside of Waco, Texas when federal agents stormed in.

abcnews.go.com

Tapes suggest tear gas not source of Waco fire; But investigators see evidence of cover-up, over-aggression

WASHINGTON — Two rounds of potentially flammable tear gas were fired into a bunker at the Branch Davidian compound on the morning of the FBI’s final assault in 1993, but both canisters …

www.baltimoresun.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1994/02/02/koresh-planned-mass-suicide-branch-davidian-witness-says/dda5e763-e03c-44ea-ba9b-10503f1c395c/

Chicago Tribune: Chicago news, sports, weather, entertainment - Chicago Tribune

Chicago Tribune

www.chicagotribune.com

Waco's kids, 10 years later

Archived information about the Waco Davidians led by David Koresh

culteducation.com

Arson experts blames cult for deadly Waco fire

WASHINGTON — Residents of the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas, intentionally set the fire that destroyed their building and then remained inside despite having ample time to flee, a…

www.baltimoresun.com

FAQs | Waco - The Inside Story | FRONTLINE | PBS

.

How the Branch Davidians set the fires for a self-fulfilling prophecy of their doomsday

The FBI snuck 11 bugs into the Branch Davidian Compound outside Waco in deliveries of milk and other items during the months-long standoff with the...

www.dallasnews.com

Audio Links Davidians to Waco Fire

abcnews.go.com

Arson experts: Davidians set fire - UPI Archives

A Branch Davidian who survived the horrific fire that ended the 1993 siege near Waco, Texas, emotionally told a House committee Friday of his last minutes...

www.upi.com

COLONEL: FBI HEARD FIRE BEING SET

Bugging devices in the Branch Davidian compound clearly picked up voices of leader David Koresh and his followers preparing and starting fires that ended the deadly 1993 standoff, according to a re…

www.courant.com

"I've kept my story secret for the last 25 years -- I didn't want to take this to my grave"

A retired UPS driver reveals new details about cult leader David Koresh and what led up to the deadly 1993 standoff with law enforcement in Waco, Texas

www.cbsnews.com

The Ghosts of Mount Carmel

Ten years after eighty Davidians died in a government-led siege, a few surviving members of the sect have returned to the plains east of Waco, looking for something. And, in some cases, waiting for David Koresh to return.

www.texasmonthly.com

H. Rept. 106-1037 - THE TRAGEDY AT WACO: NEW EVIDENCE EXAMINED

House report on THE TRAGEDY AT WACO: NEW EVIDENCE EXAMINED. This report is by the Government Reform

www.congress.gov

Sorry. The ATF shot first when they came out to talk. Sounds like Soviet Russia to me. I've watched enough documentaries and interviews of survivors of Waco. The Government goons went in looking for a fight.

If you think that's what happened in the U.S.S.R., I have a nice vacation in Siberia to sell you (Much worse in the Soviet Union)

I don't know if the ATF shot first. Perhaps they did. And there's good reason to think they were too aggressive.

Really, asking for sources for anything that you have said while trying to divert this thread.
I can see that your online, and I know that you are not speaking the truth.
This is a discussion on the ATF and their assult on the 2A, pistols to be precise.
I am being as excellent as I can toward you.

See above. I wasn't trying to divert anything; a claim came up very early in the thread, and I responded to it. It has since taken a life of its own, through no fault of my own. If you were that concerned about thread hijacking, you could have sent me a PM/DM.

Being excellent includes having the patience to give others time to respond. I do have a life outside of replying to a forum thread

How do you "know" I'm not speaking truth? Cite your sources, please.

Pretty much what I was going to say "Hey Pao! Let's see some proof!" You know, like the Congressional Hearings as proof, which didn't have ONE WORD about what you claimed about Dave Koresh! "Child molester"? Show the proof! Nut? He might have been, but show me any proof what so ever! The ONLY "proof" was the founder's loser son who got kicked out for... mmmm, exactly what you are accusing Dave of doing, who lead a squad of goons in to attack the compound and kill Dave, but got their butts kicked and ended up in prison.

Dave went for a jog every morning, could have picked him up any day of the week along side the highway. The local sheriff was often at the "compound" and allowed in any time he wanted to look around, talk to the kids, health inspector, building inspector, NONE had a problem! They knocked on the door, "hi, come on in, help yourself, look around, ask if you need anything." Per Congressional hearings.

Show me the proof or shut up!

No need for irritable ultimatums, see above. The Congressional hearings are linked above, amongst several other sources - feel free to read over them and find inconsistencies in what I'm saying.

'The government couldn't do something like that' - Study history much?

I didn't say that the government couldn't have stabbed a 3 year old through the chest with a knife. But the available evidence certainly suggests it was the Branch Davidians.

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---

If there is concern about this thread being derailed, I'm happy to take things to PM/DM or elsewhere. It wasn't my intent to do so.

 

[Wood Worker]

Survivors of 1993 Waco siege describe what happened in fire that ended the 51-day standoff

The Branch Davidians had barricaded themselves in their compound outside of Waco, Texas when federal agents stormed in.

abcnews.go.com

Tapes suggest tear gas not source of Waco fire; But investigators see evidence of cover-up, over-aggression

WASHINGTON — Two rounds of potentially flammable tear gas were fired into a bunker at the Branch Davidian compound on the morning of the FBI’s final assault in 1993, but both canisters …

www.baltimoresun.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1994/02/02/koresh-planned-mass-suicide-branch-davidian-witness-says/dda5e763-e03c-44ea-ba9b-10503f1c395c/

Chicago Tribune: Chicago news, sports, weather, entertainment - Chicago Tribune

Chicago Tribune

www.chicagotribune.com

Waco's kids, 10 years later

Archived information about the Waco Davidians led by David Koresh

culteducation.com

Arson experts blames cult for deadly Waco fire

WASHINGTON — Residents of the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas, intentionally set the fire that destroyed their building and then remained inside despite having ample time to flee, a…

www.baltimoresun.com

FAQs | Waco - The Inside Story | FRONTLINE | PBS

.

How the Branch Davidians set the fires for a self-fulfilling prophecy of their doomsday

The FBI snuck 11 bugs into the Branch Davidian Compound outside Waco in deliveries of milk and other items during the months-long standoff with the...

www.dallasnews.com

Audio Links Davidians to Waco Fire

abcnews.go.com

Arson experts: Davidians set fire - UPI Archives

A Branch Davidian who survived the horrific fire that ended the 1993 siege near Waco, Texas, emotionally told a House committee Friday of his last minutes...

www.upi.com

COLONEL: FBI HEARD FIRE BEING SET

Bugging devices in the Branch Davidian compound clearly picked up voices of leader David Koresh and his followers preparing and starting fires that ended the deadly 1993 standoff, according to a re…

www.courant.com

"I've kept my story secret for the last 25 years -- I didn't want to take this to my grave"

A retired UPS driver reveals new details about cult leader David Koresh and what led up to the deadly 1993 standoff with law enforcement in Waco, Texas

www.cbsnews.com

The Ghosts of Mount Carmel

Ten years after eighty Davidians died in a government-led siege, a few surviving members of the sect have returned to the plains east of Waco, looking for something. And, in some cases, waiting for David Koresh to return.

www.texasmonthly.com

H. Rept. 106-1037 - THE TRAGEDY AT WACO: NEW EVIDENCE EXAMINED

House report on THE TRAGEDY AT WACO: NEW EVIDENCE EXAMINED. This report is by the Government Reform

www.congress.gov

If you think that's what happened in the U.S.S.R., I have a nice vacation in Siberia to sell you (Much worse in the Soviet Union)

I don't know if the ATF shot first. Perhaps they did. And there's good reason to think they were too aggressive.



See above. I wasn't trying to divert anything; a claim came up very early in the thread, and I responded to it. It has since taken a life of its own, through no fault of my own. If you were that concerned about thread hijacking, you could have sent me a PM/DM.

Being excellent includes having the patience to give others time to respond. I do have a life outside of replying to a forum thread

How do you "know" I'm not speaking truth? Cite your sources, please.



No need for irritable ultimatums, see above. The Congressional hearings are linked above, amongst several other sources - feel free to read over them and find inconsistencies in what I'm saying.



I didn't say that the government couldn't have stabbed a 3 year old through the chest with a knife. But the available evidence certainly suggests it was the Branch Davidians.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

If there is concern about this thread being derailed, I'm happy to take things to PM/DM or elsewhere. It wasn't my intent to do so.

Thank you for your response.

I followed every link and see nothing from 1993, only re visitations by media trying to iron out their past lies, because if you lie about something once and then quote it again later, it must be the truth.

Calling some group of people you don't like or understand a cult doesn't make it the truth, even if you are using quotes from the media.
Name calling is not what this forum is about either.

They, those searching for the Davidic Kingdom, began in 1930 as a branch from the Adventist Church of the time, and were lead by Victor Houteff , then in 1955 Benjamin Roden , then his wife Lois, then possibly George, and eventually after George was sent to prison for murder, in 1990 Vernon Howell, who had a few years earlier changed his name to David Koresh.

The ATF in 1993 , claims, was responding to rumors, that the manufacturing of illegal weapons may have been happening there at the Mount Carmel Camp, just outside of Waco Texas.

Today the story focuses on the allegations of child abuse and statutory rape, which is not the reason that the ATF were there.

The ATF laid siege to those people there, and then after 51 days managed to murder 76 them by firing tear gas with incendiary properties into the buildings.

The ATF was wrong to do what they did, it is sad that they were not reprimanded for their actions there, which may have just been a wag the dog scenario to take the worlds eyes off of something else going on.

Aside from having lost a second cousin and his family to the whole magic lite show and circus presented by the ATF on April 19th 1993.
My proof was visual, by watching The Rules of Engagement documentary of the event which includes the FLIR videos from the helicopters that were hovering showing the who what when where and how the fire started.

Even if the ATF was just being used by the President to take our gaze off of other events, they still were wrong to lay seige and murder.

I agree with others that the ATF need to be de-funded.

 

[Paolung]

Thank you for your response.

I followed every link and see nothing from 1993, only re visitations by media trying to iron out their past lies, because if you lie about something once and then quote it again later, it must be the truth.

Calling some group of people you don't like or understand a cult doesn't make it the truth, even if you are using quotes from the media.
Name calling is not what this forum is about either.

They, those searching for the Davidic Kingdom, began in 1930 as a branch from the Adventist Church of the time, and were lead by Victor Houteff , then in 1955 Benjamin Roden , then his wife Lois, then possibly George, and eventually after George was sent to prison for murder, in 1990 Vernon Howell, who had a few years earlier changed his name to David Koresh.

The ATF in 1993 , claims, was responding to rumors, that the manufacturing of illegal weapons may have been happening there at the Mount Carmel Camp, just outside of Waco Texas.

Today the story focuses on the allegations of child abuse and statutory rape, which is not the reason that the ATF were there.

The ATF laid siege to those people there, and then after 51 days managed to murder 76 them by firing tear gas with incendiary properties into the buildings.

The ATF was wrong to do what they did, it is sad that they were not reprimanded for their actions there, which may have just been a wag the dog scenario to take the worlds eyes off of something else going on.

Aside from having lost a second cousin and his family to the whole magic lite show and circus presented by the ATF on April 19th 1993.
My proof was visual, by watching The Rules of Engagement documentary of the event which includes the FLIR videos from the helicopters that were hovering showing the who what when where and how the fire started.

Even if the ATF was just being used by the President to take our gaze off of other events, they still were wrong to lay seige and murder.

I agree with others that the ATF need to be de-funded.

I agree with much of what you said.

I did not include much from 1993-5 because most of that story is familiar to anyone who was around for it (personally, I was less than 50 miles from it when it went down). I have personally met - that is to say, in person - survivors from the Branch Davidian fiasco and spoken with them about it, and their experiences.

The history of how the group formed is interesting and fairly well documented, as is how Koresh more or less took over as their charismatic leader and had, more or less, absolute authority.

I called them a cult because they fit the definition of one - at least while Koresh was the head - not because I dislike them or their belief system. There are plenty of belief systems I disagree with and dislike, but not all of them develop the kind of fervor and slavish devotion to offer up underage girls to their heads for sexual satisfaction or to put suicide on the table (to my knowledge these things are not really in dispute).

The Congressional testimony also sums up much of the former evidence (which is one reason it's so long) and introduces evidence that was uncovered and clarified later on.

That Congressional report was made after Rules of Engagement was produced and released and incorporated what was known at the time.

Agree ATF should have been held more accountable for the botched job and mistakes they made. Plenty of legitimate questions about their behavior and activities have gone more or less unanswered, and that's not even getting into Ruby Ridge or other incidents.

I'm not here to defend ATF - I only spoke up because in this particular case - the Waco fiasco - I don't believe the evidence shows that it was the ATF who is ultimately responsible for the suffering and deaths of those people (especially the children, who, by virtue of their childhood, cannot be held responsible for their own decisions in any real capacity).

My point isn't that ATF/ FBI / HRT are blameless; rather, it's that Koresh shares AT LEAST as much blame (and in my personal view, considerably more).

Hope that clarifies.

I think most of us here are, generally speaking, on the same side. We just may differ on where we place portions of the blame for what happened, but I suspect none of us here think Koresh was blameless either (if I'm wrong, please correct me).

 

[The Heretic]

Gun grab sparks 'Defund ATF' movement

They are the strongest opponents of defunding the police, but now, conservatives are carving out an exception ⁠— the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.

www.washingtonexaminer.com

 

[aksu747]

Gun grab sparks 'Defund ATF' movement

They are the strongest opponents of defunding the police, but now, conservatives are carving out an exception ⁠— the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.

www.washingtonexaminer.com

Good hopefully it picks up a lot of steam, and the ATF is permanently gone as an agency.

 

[Melman]

Shrug, LOTS of gun owners were all in on getting rid of Trump. So they won and got what they wanted. Now they can enjoy getting what they asked for. Should be fun to watch.

No Biden supporter here but you mean the very same trumo that passed not one single pro second amendment legistsion? But instead created the blueprint for using ATF and DOJ to reclassify weapons like he did with plastic bump fire stocks and made them into machine guns? The same New York liberal elite who was friends with Clintons and Bloomberg's for decades and supported Clinton crime bill? That trump

 

[The Heretic]

No Biden supporter here but you mean the very same trumo that passed not one single pro second amendment legistsion? But instead created the blueprint for using ATF and DOJ to reclassify weapons like he did with plastic bump fire stocks and made them into machine guns? The same New York liberal elite who was friends with Clintons and Bloomberg's for decades and supported Clinton crime bill? That trump

Yeah that Trump. The same one that said "Take the guns first, go through due process second,".

 

[GrayGoose]

"Take the guns first, go through due process second,".

That one statement lost him a lot of supporters instantly. And now, we have President Kamalho to look forward to...

 

[The Heretic]

That one statement lost him a lot of supporters instantly. And now, we have President Kamalho to look forward to...

Like many things, he said he wanted to do X and did the opposite or never did anything. That is especially true with regards to the second Amendment. About the only thing he did was appoint a bunch of conservative judges - which IMO is a mixed bag across the spectrum of our rights (not just the Second Amendment).

 

[Stomper]

The kind of sad part is as soon as the people they voted for start doing stuff to go against rights, as all with a brain know they will, the people who voted for them will blame everyone else. It is both sad and amazing to watch.

A while back I was talking to a fellow union member and Obamacare came up, and he ACTUALLY blamed republicans for how crappy it is and how they sabotaged it when it was being drafted.

I reminded him that republican committee members were actually physically locked out of the room during the entire process and the legislation received ZERO republican votes in congress and the senate before Obama signed it into law.


The cognitive dissonance response and eye rolling rivaled some July 4th displays.....

 

[USMC1911]

Shrug, LOTS of gun owners were all in on getting rid of Trump. So they won and got what they wanted. Now they can enjoy getting what they asked for. Should be fun to watch.

I'm not convinced any of this is going to be any fun.

 

[The Heretic]

I'm not convinced any of this is going to be any fun.

Agreed. I don't anticipate a lot of political fun for the next four years. But then, the past four years hasn't been fun either and the talk of martial law and redoing an election is downright scary. I don't like Biden and I didn't vote for him, but I will be glad when Trump leaves the White House.