National ATF coming for pistol braces

[The Heretic]

I think trying to fire a 20" AR with one hand would be dangerous at a minimum. And a tough sell to anyone wearing .gov gear.

15" or 20" - not that much difference in weight - if it has a no buttstock and you call it a pistol...

Just about any AR is difficult to shoot one handed - that is one reason why the braces exist - at least originally.

I can shoot bullpup long guns one handed easier than I can an AR one handed.

 

[CamoDeafie]

If the ATF lawyer weasels says it only has to meet ONE part of the definitions, then they could declare a braced AR pistol as "Any Other Weapon" (best example; a handgun/pistol with a 2nd Vertical grip)

The term "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Taken from ATF's own site as it stands..

It excludes handguns and pistols with rifled bores as designed; BUT they have handguns with 2 vertical grips as "examples" on another page

 

[Kruel J]

Indeed. Its only being discussed because of the proposed worksheet/scorecard containing the term AOW in addition to SBR.

The scorecard also says it must be between 12 and 26" so a 20" barreled AR is automatically DQ'd.

"Not based on a known shoulder stock design" also messes things up because the AR was designed as a shoulder-fired weapon.

https://www.atf.gov/file/154866/download

 

[CamoDeafie]

The scorecard also says it must be between 12 and 26" so a 20" barreled AR is automatically DQ'd.

https://www.atf.gov/file/154866/download

They did also say "we might still call it an AOW or SBR anyways" lol

 

[sobo]

In the decades, years since the establishment of NFA 1934, and subsequent GC laws...

Has there ever been any attempts by the Federal Govt to confiscate lawfully registered NFA firearms/items from lawful/law-abiding owners? (Edit, other than the MG registry and post 1986 MG thing)

• Jerry Drasen - ATF raided an NFA-licensed firearms dealer, who subsequently was sent to prison without breaking any law
• Aron S. Lipman - ATF confiscated his gun inventory while claiming that he "conspired to violate federal firearms law", which he did not
• William Fleming - Class 3 NFA dealer sent to prison for embarrassing the ATF as an expert witness for the defense, raided in retaliation therefore
• Harry & Terry Lamplugh - raided, home destroyed, cat trampled to death (not a dog this time), raid was determined to be illegal and unconstitutional

In all cases above, their firearms were confiscated, even though none of these people did anything wrong or illegal. With at least two of them being NFA dealers, I would posit that the federal government did indeed confiscate lawfully registered NFA firearms/items from lawful/law-abiding owners.

Read Unintended Consequences by John Ross for further info.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

• Jerry Drasen - ATF raided an NFA-licensed firearms dealer, who subsequently was sent to prison without breaking any law
• Aron S. Lipman - ATF confiscated his gun inventory while claiming that he "conspired to violate federal firearms law", which he did not
• William Fleming - Class 3 NFA dealer sent to prison for embarrassing the ATF as an expert witness for the defense, raided in retaliation therefore
• Harry & Terry Lamplugh - raided, home destroyed, cat trampled to death (not a dog this time), raid was determined to be illegal and unconstitutional

In all cases above, their firearms were confiscated, even though none of these people did anything wrong or illegal. With at least two of them being NFA dealers, I would posit that the federal government did indeed confiscate lawfully registered NFA firearms/items from lawful/law-abiding owners.

Read Unintended Consequences by John Ross for further info.

Exactly right. They can even call toy guns that are totally incapable of ever firing an actual cartridge machine guns (see video below):

Also they entrap mentally retarded for easy way to gain their quota:

Redirect Notice

And do lots of stuff you would think the us gov could never do:

ATF agents use rogue tactics in stings across the U.S.

The agency said failures of its Milwaukee operation were isolated, but the Journal Sentinel found similar issues in at least six cities nationwide — targeting the mentally disabled, encouraging crimes and more.

archive.jsonline.com

 

[Kruel J]

• Jerry Drasen - ATF raided an NFA-licensed firearms dealer, who subsequently was sent to prison without breaking any law
• Aron S. Lipman - ATF confiscated his gun inventory while claiming that he "conspired to violate federal firearms law", which he did not
• William Fleming - Class 3 NFA dealer sent to prison for embarrassing the ATF as an expert witness for the defense, raided in retaliation therefore
• Harry & Terry Lamplugh - raided, home destroyed, cat trampled to death (not a dog this time), raid was determined to be illegal and unconstitutional

In all cases above, their firearms were confiscated, even though none of these people did anything wrong or illegal. With at least two of them being NFA dealers, I would posit that the federal government did indeed confiscate lawfully registered NFA firearms/items from lawful/law-abiding owners.

Read Unintended Consequences by John Ross for further info.

I would need a lot more info to have any real discussion about these.

 

[sobo]

I would need a lot more info to have any real discussion about these.

Read Unintended Consequences by John Ross. I doubt anything you'd find in the MSM or Wikipedia would accurately portray the facts.

 

[osprey]

Read Unintended Consequences by John Ross. I doubt anything you'd find in the MSM or Wikipedia would accurately portray the facts.

It has been 15 years or so since I read it: I will have to dust it off and give it another for perspective.

 

[CamoDeafie]

So @sobo ; these cases, few as they might be... are exactly a few of the reasons so many gun rights groups have been telling apathetic gun owners to fight firearms registration and such... these cases also bolster the argument against keeping the "ATF" (which has been only F...pun intended ) and also against keeping NFA, GCA1968, Hughes Amendment...

In the meantime... I shall remain law abiding and lawful, as best as I can.

 

[sobo]

In the meantime... I shall remain law abiding and lawful, as best as I can.

As will I... but I don't hafta like it...

 

[Johnnie]

What category does the bull pup fall into?

 

[The Heretic]

What category does the bull pup fall into?

As long as it is 26"+ OAL and a 16" barrel (18" for shotgun), it is no different than any other rifle per federal law. This is one of the number of reasons I like bullpups - handling being the main reason.

 

[CamoDeafie]

As long as it is 26"+ OAL and a 16" barrel (18" for shotgun), it is no different than any other rifle per federal law. This is one of the number of reasons I like bullpups - handling being the main reason.

Thats why guns such as FN PS90 have longer than stock barrels, to meet the 26"+ OAL to avoid being called SBR I think? 16+" barrel.

 

[The Heretic]

Thats why guns such as FN PS90 have longer than stock barrels, to meet the 26"+ OAL to avoid being called SBR I think? 16+" barrel.

Kind of - the PS90 has a rifled barrel length of 14.8", to meet the 26" OAL legal requirement, there is also a shroud with a flash hider, to meet the 26" OAL requirement. The shroud is pinned to the barrel. Therefore, the legal length of the barrel is 16" and the OAL length of the PS90 is 26.2"

The P90 has a barrel length of 10.4" and OAL of 19.9".

I want to find someone who will install an integral or reflex suppressor in such a way (permanent) that the PS90 barrel is 10" and the barrel with the suppressor is 16" and OAL is 26" - so that it is not an SBR. The suppressor body would be permanently attached to the barrel, but the end cap and baffles would need to be removable for cleaning.

The alternative would be to get something like the Huntertown shroud and have it permanently attached to a short barrel, then the suppressor would fit inside of it.

 

[CamoDeafie]

@The Heretic ; I found the relevant US law for the 26" OAL for SBRs/SBS..

18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions

(6)
The term "short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
(7)
The term "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
(8)
The term "short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

So to keep things legal for bullpups at the least; the OAL must be 26"+ and the barrel length must be 16"+ for rifle, 18"+ for shotguns. This would explain why the High Tower Armory's 995 bullpup stock kit gives the original Hi Point carbine an OAL of 26.5" with stock carbine barrel length , as well as the PS90's longer barrel and flash hider/shroud. The Steyr AUG A1 came in 20 and 16" barrels but I think only the 20" SA submodels were ever imported until 1989's import ban?

Edit. @Kruel J this set of definitions might also be where the ATF would be trying to redefine the AR pistols with braces as SBRs, if the OAL is under 26" or over 26" but the barrel lengths are under 16". Its also why there's been talk about how to get around these definitions.. here is their Handgun definition


29)The term "handgun" means—
(A)
a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B)
any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.


This is also where the 2nd VFG on a handgun = AOW in the NFA examples list. No OAL defined here, but ATF defined "concealable" as under 26" OAL in official documents, with respect to the AOW definition.

Edit 2. The pistol wrist/arm brace with strap, was officially meant to provide a safe way to use the AR pistol with a single hand

 

[sobo]

Edit. @Kruel J this set of definitions might also be where the ATF would be trying to redefine the AR pistols with braces as SBRs, if the OAL is under 26" or over 26" but the barrel lengths are under 16". Its also why there's been talk about how to get around these definitions.. here is their Handgun definition


29)The term "handgun" means—
(A)
a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B)
any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.


This is also where the 2nd VFG on a handgun = AOW in the NFA examples list. No OAL defined here, but ATF defined "concealable" as under 26" OAL in official documents, with respect to the AOW definition.

Edit 2. The pistol wrist/arm brace with strap, was officially meant to provide a safe way to use the AR pistol with a single hand

If using a KAK-style blade, is it required to have a strap affixed to it to qualify the piece as a pistol under the ATF definition?

 

[The Heretic]

If using a KAK-style blade, is it required to have a strap affixed to it to qualify the piece as a pistol under the ATF definition?

I don't think so - they don't come with a strap.

The basic rule is not to modify what you get with the brace as shipped/approved. Don't add or delete.