Washington As a non-licensee, can I transfer a handgun to a private party in michigan via a FFL?

Rob23 · Oct 30, 2018

Hello I am new resident (and new member of this forum) and I had a few questions regarding the current background check requirments in WA state law. A friend of mine in Michigan was interested in a handgun that I own. I am trying to figure out the most cost-effective way to legally get the gun to him. So far I have concluded by reading for the past few hours that at the federal level, and as a non-licensee, the handgun must be shipped to an FFL in MI.

The process, if I understand it correctly is as follows:

After I settle the transaction with the buyer, the receiving FFL in MI needs to somehow provide a copy of their license via some means to me.
I should validate that the license via the ATF's ezCheck system for my own protection
The handgun can then be shipped to the MI FFL directly. It cannot be USPS but rather a common carrier like FedEx and the shipment has to be overnighted.
Once received by the MI FFL, they will perform the NICS background check and will then provide the handgun to the buyer/transferor.

What happens if the MI FFL determines that the buyer cannot possess the gun? I don't anticipate this to happen but who is the legal owner of the gun? Is it the FFL's property now?

I have seen people talk about that "need" to go through two FFLs. I don't understand why "outbound" FFL transfers to other FFLs are even necessary. Federal law, to my knowledge makes no requirement that the seller proxy the gun through two FFLs. It seems like a money grab to me. I have seen FFLs online that say they will not accept packages from a party that is not FFL. Why do they do this? Is this some form of collusion to force people to use "dealer networks" or whatever? Or is it ignorance? Or perhaps I am totally mixed up here myself..

So with all of the above in mind, the thing that gets me is WA background check requirements. According to RCW 9.41.113 (1):

(1) All firearm sales or transfers, in whole or part in this state including without limitation a sale or transfer where either the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington, shall be subject to background checks...

This passage implies that the transaction one way or the other requires a background check. It doesn't make sense to me why the law makes references to "part" of the transaction being in Washington state. By Federal law already, I am required to ship the gun to an FFL which will then perform a NICS background check, even prior to I-594 being passed. In the opposite situation, if I were a buyer having a gun shipped into WA state, then the seller would be obligated to also send to an FFL here. So this begs the question - what purpose is of this "in part" language other than to be deceptive or confusing?

Moving to section (2):

(2) No person shall sell or transfer a firearm unless:
(a) The person is a licensed dealer;
(b) The purchaser or transferee is a licensed dealer; or
(c) The requirements of subsection (3) of this section are met.
(3) Where neither party to a prospective firearms transaction is a licensed dealer, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale or transfer through a licensed dealer as follows...

and subsequently spells out what is required of "licensed dealers" when performing the transfer through them. The term "licensed dealer" is defined by 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a). Again, the licensed dealer per federal law is required to perform background checks so all of the things required of dealers in the list in section 3 seem redundant.

The other possibility is to take the gun to MI with me on the plane directly when I go there for the holiday. Its not impossible (but still quite a pain) to fly with a pistol as long as its in a checked, locked hard sided case where I must retain the key on my person at all times or something like that - I forgot the details). While in MI, find a FFL because selling directly is still illegal at the federal level because I do not have a domicile in MI. Then do the transfer face to face.

TLDR, the most confusing part of this is the whole "outbound FFL transfer" piece. I don't understand why this is a necessary step. Any insight in any of this would be very helpful!

ma96782 · Oct 31, 2018

Some private gun owners (w/o an FFL) have advocated using a WA FFL to ship a handgun to an out of state FFL because, shipping via USPS even with FFL fees added is sometimes CHEAPER than shipping via common carrier (UPS, Fed Ex, etc...).

BTW.....it's not the Fed Govt that requires that the common carriers ship "Over Night" (+ whatever else added fees). The common carriers have added/placed those restrictions. Because, they can't trust their own employees from stealing your firearm while it's in their care/custody. Ok, Ok, ok......I guess the same could be said of the USPS employees.

Then.....some FFLs will not accept shipments from anyone other than another FFL because, some individuals don't do it properly* and besides.....FFLs are private businesses. So, they can make their own rules for their own business (not speaking about discrimination practices etc...).

On that subject......

Note that:
Dick's Sporting Goods (and some other companies) will not sell a rifle and/or rifle ammunition to a non prohibited adult (age 18-20 years old). Even though Fed Law says it's legal.

STORY TIME:
When I lived in Hawaii, I use to frequently buy SAA revolvers off off the internet auction sights. ALERT LIBERALS >>> THERE IS NO INTERNET LOOPHOLE!!! So anyway, I had to get the sellers to send the handguns to my FFL in Hawaii. Most of the time.....things went flawlessly. Private individuals (and companies) had no problems with sending the guns to my FFL.

But then, there was that time.......when the private seller told me that shipping would cost me $80. WTF? Shipping was usually only something like $40 back then. So....why? He told me that his FFL told him that because he was a CO resident.....he must ship FFL to FFL. I don't know CO law. But, I know it's not the Fed Law. I figured that the FFL was just trying to cut himself into the deal. Then......the shipment had to go via common carrier. Wait a second.....why should an FFL to FFL shipment go via common carrier when USPS is cheaper? Because, that is what his FFL wanted. The FFL didn't want to stand in line at the Post Office.

Needless to say, that I PAID for all the c@#^ because I wanted that revolver.

When the revolver arrived at my FFL.....well, everything went smoothly from there. YES, my FFL was responsible to do the proper paperwork and ensure that all Federal Laws and laws of the State of Hawaii were adhered to, before the revolver was in my hands.

*Some FFLs want a copy of a person's driver's lic. or other form of acceptable ID included in the shipment. Rrrright.....it's not a requirement to include a driver's lic (or ID). But yes.....the FFL needs to record certain information of the seller. But, think of all of the bad things (ID Theft) that could happen with your driver's lic out there in the world? So maybe, FFL to FFL is "better or more secure"?

Note that there was/is an FFL in WA (or was it OR) that would color copy your ID when doing a transfer. YES, the FFL will charge you extra for the copying service. Otherwise, you need to provide your own copy, when making a transfer. That is not by LAW either. But some FFLs want extra $.....for being a part of your transactions.

Not to mention, that (for instance) in order to ship a firearm to a FFL in CA. The out of state FFL must FIRST register with CA. Most FFLs don't want to be bothered with registering with a foreign state. Especially when it isn't required by Fed Law. Thus.....many sellers will just say, "No sales to CA". And of course, CA has so many stupid laws about firearms and ammo that change so fast.

Aloha, Mark

OldTengu · Oct 31, 2018

Go to your LGS and ask them if they will ship to your friend's LGS. He will have to undergo a BGC to pick it up, if he doesn't pass, it gets shipped back, preferably on your pal's dime, but probably yours, unless your buddy is a good guy.
May cost a few bucks extra but it saves a lot of gluteus pain.

OldTengu · Oct 31, 2018

Also they may not accept shipments from non ffls simply on the basis that you may not have remembered to unload your piece before chucking it in a box and slapping a shipping label. Apparently the FFL holders have proven to be more infallible than the rest of us.

drstrangelove · Oct 31, 2018

More food for thought... if the used gun arrives from an FFL as opposed to a private individual with a copy of their DL enclosed, at least in the state of WA, sales tax based on the stated Bill of Sale amount or the estimated value of the gun will be collected. If that's a spendy gun you're buying or selling, it's always worth considering how much sales tax could be applicable and if it's avoidable. Consigned guns coming into WA are considered taxable because the FFL sending it "has it on their books". Got screwed on that once. The only time a private party mailing to an FFL is ok is if you trust the private party implicitly and use UPSP MO for payment, because fraudulent use of postal MO is not only a higher degree of Felony, it's easily traceable.

jbett98 · Oct 31, 2018

Look up Buds Guns shipping services. It's called "Ship My Gun" and I've found that it's the simplest and cheapest way to ship a handgun across state lines.
You box up the gun, weigh it and then answer a few questions on the web site and then print the next day air shipping label after paying the charges.
You then drop it off at the nearest FedEx hub. Walk in, get a receipt and walk out in minutes. No hassles.
The best part is that you can select an FFL near your friend from their extensive list of FFL's that have done business with them and Ship My Gun does all the FFL paperwork for you.
You still need to include a color copy (front/back) of your drivers license with the package.
The next day air charges are half of what they would charge you if you walk into one of their shipping hubs.

justcuz · Nov 1, 2018

Intrastate transfer is one thing, interstate transfers are quite different, one governed by 'State' statutory firearm guidance the other by Federal USC ATF regulation(s).

As a suggestion to mitigate your inadvertantly violation of either State statutes or Federal ATF regulations, just allow those already in tune with the appropriate transfer processes to including doing the shipping for you.

For example, FFLs can quickly accomplish exchange of their licenses via email; can ship handguns via US Postal Service [mail] cheaper than FedEx; and distant end FFL can accomplish bkgnd checks, if applicable for the state!

Just a passing thought to preclude you reinventing the wheel...

Pops1911 · Nov 1, 2018

Shouldn't be a problem. I recently transferred a fire arm to a family member out of state and used my local gun store to get it done. Easy peasy.

Rob23 · Nov 1, 2018

Thanks everyone for their insight! I appreciate the feedback.

jbett98 said:
Look up Buds Guns shipping services. It's called "Ship My Gun" and I've found that it's the simplest and cheapest way to ship a handgun across state lines.
You box up the gun, weigh it and then answer a few questions on the web site and then print the next day air shipping label after paying the charges.
You then drop it off at the nearest FedEx hub. Walk in, get a receipt and walk out in minutes. No hassles.
The best part is that you can select an FFL near your friend from their extensive list of FFL's that have done business with them and Ship My Gun does all the FFL paperwork for you.
You still need to include a color copy (front/back) of your drivers license with the package.
The next day air charges are half of what they would charge you if you walk into one of their shipping hubs.

I was also considering Ship My Guns as the solution to the problem. I priced out the quote and its around $40. Which is cheaper than what the shops in Bellevue and Seattle charge for the outbound FFL "fee" + shipping. All that's left is arranging the FFL in Michigan I guess.

Once again thanks for the feedback everyone!

jbett98 · Nov 1, 2018

The only drawback with SMG is that it isn't an instant process. You need to give them at least day for them to process the shipping label, especially if the receiving FFL hasn't worked with SMG before.