Armed ATF Agents Show up at Gun Owner's Home Unannounced, to Inspect Lawfully Purchased Guns

[slimmer13]

Love to discus that, can't figure out how to do that within the frameworks of the NWFA rules

A PM to another forum member , may be the way to go here .

Andy

By all means. I enjoy the working through and debating of ideas.

 

[red442joe]

I know very few people who have quit a job because they thought something they were asked to do was a bad idea.

One of the main reasons I did not re-enlist was because I did not like being trapped in a situation where telling my "boss" to take his/her job and shove it could wind up with me being court martialed.

You now know one more.

Joe

 

[red442joe]

I should point out that carrying out instructions can get people in really deep trouble. Peace officers all across the country are finding this out. They might routinely enforce the law, only to have a case blow up on them with accusations of excessive force, racial profiling, etc.

An extreme case of this was that of Hitler era Germany. Where the excesses of an authoritarian state were initially accepted, then got out of hand, next thing anyone knew, it was business as usual. When they lost the war, they wondered what had gone wrong. Dissidence was rare but punishment could be harsh.. Participation was rewarded. People who didn't embrace enthusiastically may not have been persecuted but in general they didn't prosper. Lots of government officials and employees had pensions on the line. They thought the ride was going to be longer. BUT: These were people who had sworn an oath to their government. Which came back around and bit them hard. This is an extreme but clear example of the dangers of blind obedience.

Yet there must be some level of obedience to any reasonable system of governance. Most of us have to earn a living. We have to be careful in choosing our battles.

So when "the authorities" come to you door, what do you do? You obey the law, stay out of jail, keep your family whole. By refusing a search without a warrant, you are still within the law, no problem. Let them get the warrant; if you are law-abiding, you don't have anything to worry about. Personally I think the idea of officers making a routine check to enforce the straw buyer rule isn't excessive. They ask to see a gun, let them stay outside, show them the gun.

No!

Joe

 

[red442joe]

click bait title.

would you expect unarmed atf agents?

Yes, don't Disarm police, or any law enforcement.
Disarm the police.

Joe

 

[red442joe]

If the state law requires a BGC for all transfers, then they can build up a registry DB of the guns so transferred. They may not have all guns in a registry, but they will get many, maybe most of them, and they will have a list of many/most gun owners, thereby knowing which doors to come knocking on.

QFT
Does ANYONE, anyone at all, think the state does NOT keep a "registry"? Anyone??
Don't forget who-all constitutes "the state".

Joe

 

[gmerkt]

ATF agents are sworn law enforcement officers, of course they are going to be armed.

 

[red442joe]

Federal all requires dealers in all 50 states to conduct an NCIC background check. Assuming the state was checking that database for users registered as FFL's the only information they would obtain is whether or not a background check took place. They would not know if a transfer was completed or canceled. Additionally, there is no firearm information entered when conducting a background check.

What? I believe you have something to say, I just can't make heads or tails...

Joe

 

[red442joe]

I was told by one of the Oregon State Police clerks that do the approvals/denials of gun purchasers that Oregon (only) keeps the purchase/sale records for five years. She said after that they are purged. During that five years the information regarding purchase/sales is available to other LEAs.
Maybe that is the case....who knows? I had a shoplifting arrest when I was a schoolboy for eating a handful of nuts out of an open container in a grocery store. I was cleared but the arrest record remains. Several years ago I purchased a .22 rifle and went thru 6 weeks of waiting until the arresting agency (City Police, Dover, Dleaware) finally was able to provide the information. I was arrested in 1957. So....every five years I have to go thru the whole process again because they have no record of my being cleared of the same arrest so it does look like they only keep records on an individual for that long.

"Purged" as in "thrown out" in the bin marked "Oregon Not state police Records Disposal (winkwink) LLC" . When you call "ONspRD(ww)LLC" asking "Hey, what do yous guys do?" the nice lady asks "Are you from a Police Department, cus we only work for law enforcement agencies".

Joe
Yes, I do have my tin-foil.

 

[RobMa]

Not"Purged" as in "thrown out" in the bin marked "Oregon Not state police Records Disposal (winkwink) LLC" . When you call "ONspRD(ww)LLC" asking "Hey, what do yous guys do?" the nice lady asks "Are you from a Police Department, cus we only work for law enforcement agencies".

Joe
Yes, I do have my tin-foil.

View attachment 1248634

Funny thing about conspiracy theories, everyone belittles those who have them; that is until they come true and then…… crickets

 

[RobMa]

 

[helloyatches]

ATF agents are sworn law enforcement officers, of course they are going to be armed.

Industry Operation's, Enforcement, and Administration.

Only the Twat's in Enforcement can carry a firearm on your property. = The Goon Squad = Waco, Ruby Ridge type Jerk's.
Not once have I ever seen a IOI carrying a firearm during a inspection.
And I've had a FEW of them over the past 20 years.


The answer to a Knock and talk is easy.
Don't answer the door.
If they catch you outside, tell them that you need to speak to a lawyer before you answer questions.

 

[EHJ]

Don't know if this posted already...

But it's still glorious. (It was a while ago...)

(Agent was arrested. )

https://twitter.com/x/status/1555283717526110208

 

[RobMa]

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Buying 2 handguns in the same week at the same dealer triggers the report (the FFL is required to file it). Unless one is in the border states then it's different.

Someone posted the ATF rule in this thread or another thread. It's very cut and dry. If you buy handguns space it out over a week apart and a report will never be filed (outside of border states I mean).

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Don't know if this posted already...

But it's still glorious. (It was a while ago...)

(Agent was arrested. )

https://twitter.com/x/status/1555283717526110208

Not sure if it was this thread or another one, but it has been posted. Also, the agent is suing the LEO and obligatory IANAL, but I think he has a pretty good chance of wining

ATF agent sues Columbus police over armed confrontation/tazing incident | Buckeye Firearms Association

WOSU (NPR Columbus) reported recently that a special agent with the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms is suing the Columbus police department after a July 7, 2020 incident in which Columbus police officers handcuffed and tazed him. The entire incident was caught on body cam.

www.buckeyefirearms.org

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Not sure if it was this thread or another one, but it has been posted. Also, the agent is suing the LEO and obligatory IANAL, but I think he has a pretty good chance of wining

ATF agent sues Columbus police over armed confrontation/tazing incident | Buckeye Firearms Association

WOSU (NPR Columbus) reported recently that a special agent with the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms is suing the Columbus police department after a July 7, 2020 incident in which Columbus police officers handcuffed and tazed him. The entire incident was caught on body cam.

www.buckeyefirearms.org

That's too bad. The ATF agent should not be able to sue. If there were any justice the ATF agent should lose his job and be locked up for a while.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

That's too bad. The ATF agent should not be able to sue. If there were any justice the ATF agent should lose his job and be locked up for a while.

Meh, JMHO but up to the law and the jury who should lose their job

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Meh, JMHO but up to the law and the jury who should lose their job

Not when ATF agents go rougue and overeach what is allowed by law and by the constitution, which they do all too often. Even to the point of duping mentally retarded people into committing crimes and worse.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Not when ATF agents go rougue and overeach what is allowed by law and by the constitution, which they do all too often. Even to the point of duping mentally retarded people into committing crimes and worse.

Not the way the law works, but I understand your point of view

 

[gmerkt]

Industry Operation's, Enforcement, and Administration.

Thank you for the explanation, I didn't know that. This probably answers my question as to why there was an Oregon State Trooper with the ATF guys. Just in case any shooting needed doing.

So I take it only ATF "Special Agents" in enforcement carry guns. If an IOI comes to the door, you don't have to worry about them pulling a Randy Weaver thing. But when they come to the door, you don't know if they are IOI or Enforcement. Ask to see credentials?