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Arizona SWAT shoots marine, new developments

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by dmancornell, May 20, 2011.

  1. dmancornell

    dmancornell Portland, OR New Member

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    Picking up from this locked thread with new press info: http://www.northwestfirearms.com/legal-political/58385-answering-door-arizona.html

    As expected, the cops are pissing on Guerena's grave by slandering his character and making unsubstantiated claims about his supposed involvement in a "home invasion ring" because he owned legal guns and body armor: Attorney: SWAT raid found guns, body armor. Yes indeed, a man who worked 12 hour graveyard shifts in mines (i.e. an honest job, unlike his killers) had the energy to do home invasions on the side.

    The cops' lawyer also insinuated the murdered man was a drug runner (even though the wife says there are no drugs in the house) because he had a picture of the Mexican Robin Hood under his bed: Jesús Malverde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In addition, the cops threw a hissy fit at the media for daring to question the legality of the raid and criticizing the decision to deny Guerena medical care: Tucson SWAT Team Defends Shooting Iraq Marine Veteran 60 Times - ABC News

    Apparently Training Day isn't fictional.... I AM THE LAW! :laugh:

    In summary, cops shoot a man 60 times and they get a vacation, we pay for sleazy lawyers to cover their justified circus.
    jer fly, mattg521, Guymcdb and 5 others like this.
  2. Redcap

    Redcap Lewis County, WA Well-Known Member

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    Not surprised.
  3. Decker

    Decker My house Active Member

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    Shameful and sad.
  4. titsonritz

    titsonritz has left the building. Well-Known Member

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    I have a hard time believing what I read in the press, most of the time it is a pretty distorted account of what actually happened. In this case, I’ll wait for the release of the video before passing judgment on the SWAT team.
  5. saxon

    saxon springfield Active Member

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    they were supossed to be serving drug search warrents so where is the copy to show how bad this guy was??
    where is the evidence that they would have to have to get said search warrent??

    Corpus delicti (plural: corpora delicti) (Latin: "body of crime") is a term from Western jurisprudence which refers to the principle that it must be proven that a crime has occurred before a person can be convicted of committing the crime. For example, a person cannot be tried for larceny unless it can be proven that property has been stolen. Likewise, in order for a person to be tried for arson it must be proven that a criminal act resulted in the burning of a property. Black's Law Dictionary (6th ed.) defines "corpus delicti" as: "the fact of a crime having been actually committed."
  6. titsonritz

    titsonritz has left the building. Well-Known Member

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    It is my understanding they were not serving a warrant for drugs; the guy was a suspect in a home invasion ring.
  7. usmc9705

    usmc9705 lake forest park New Member

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    The true story will eventually come out. Regardless not letting him receive medical, attention is criminal. The only thing i can think of is the leos lack of training and innsufficient moral standards, along with character flaws, may have led to the Marine not receiving treatment. 1 hour to "secure a house" is rediculous, which again leads me to believe that the training is substandard, and there was a failure of leadership...
  8. titsonritz

    titsonritz has left the building. Well-Known Member

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    It’s not like they were standing over the guy watching him bleed out. They were going after someone they suspected as part of a home invasion ring and after their original encounter with a rifle armed suspect they withdrew to an exterior perimeter. They had no idea if they were additional armed and armored threats inside. It was not until after the woman and child exited the house and they sent in a robot to help determine if additional potential threats existed such as ambush that is when they discovered the deceased suspect.

    Don’t get me wrong, it is a tragic loss to the family and I am the first guy to denounce abuse of power by LEOs, but I believe they did everything by the book here. As I said in my earlier post, their video will no doubt absolve them from any wrong doing.
    glock.40 and (deleted member) like this.
  9. jvbutter

    jvbutter Cornelius, Or Active Member

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    that is also what the article stated. but there was some talk of drug involvment.
    unless it was unknown as to the safety of the dwelling??? but hello, how long does it take to secure a house??? and why 71 shots at the man.... was he hiding in a hallway, and lets see 30rd mag is better than 3 officers shooting. I guess it does not say his location in the house when the officers came in. I know, I'm arm chair quarterbacking it...
  10. billcoe

    billcoe PDX Platinum Supporter Platinum Supporter

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    The story from the news:

    May 20, 2011

    A Tucson, Ariz., SWAT team defends shooting an Iraq War veteran 60 times during a drug raid, although it declines to say whether it found any drugs in the house and has had to retract its claim that the veteran shot first.

    And the Pima County sheriff scolded the media for "questioning the legality" of the shooting.

    Jose Guerena, 26, died the morning of May 5. He was asleep in his Tucson home after working a night shift at the Asarco copper mine when his wife, Vanessa, saw the armed SWAT team outside her youngest son's bedroom window.

    "She saw a man pointing at her with a gun," said Reyna Ortiz, 29, a relative who is caring for Vanessa and her children. Ortiz said Vanessa Guerena yelled, "Don't shoot! I have a baby!"

    Vanessa Guerena thought the gunman might be part of a home invasion -- especially because two members of her sister-in-law's family, Cynthia and Manny Orozco, were killed last year in their Tucson home, her lawyer, Chris Scileppi, said. She shouted for her husband in the next room, and he woke up and told his wife to hide in the closet with the child, Joel, 4.
    PHOTO: SWAT officers fired at least 71 shots at suspect Jose Guerena, a former U.S. Marine.

    Guerena grabbed his assault rifle and was pointing it at the SWAT team, which was trying to serve a narcotics search warrant as part of a multi-house drug crackdown, when the team broke down the door. At first the Pima County Sheriff's Office said that Guerena fired first, but on Wednesday officials backtracked and said he had not. "The safety was on and he could not fire," according to the sheriff's statement.

    Tucson SWAT Team Shot Iraq War Vet 60 Times

    SWAT team members fired 71 times and hit Guerena 60 times, police said.

    In a frantic 911 call, Vanessa Guerena begged for medical help for her husband. "He's on the floor!" she said, crying, to the 911 operator. "Can you please hurry up?"

    Asked if law enforcement was inside or outside the house, she told the operator, according to a transcript of the call, that they were inside. "They were ... going to shoot me. And I put my kid in front of me."

    A report by ABC News affiliate KGUN found that more than an hour had passed before the SWAT team let the paramedics work on Guerena. By then he was dead.

    A spokesman for Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said he could not discuss whether any drugs had been found at the home or make any other comment. "We're waiting for the investigation to be complete," he said.

    In a statement, the sheriff's office criticized the media, saying that while questions will inevitably be raised, "It is unacceptable and irresponsible to couch those questions with implications of secrecy and a coverup, not to mention questioning the legality of actions that could not have been taken without the approval of an impartial judge."

    Mike Storie, a lawyer for the SWAT team, said at a press conference Thursday that weapons and body armor were found in the home as well as a photo of Jesus Malverde, who Storie called a "patron saint drug runner," according to KGUN.

    Storie defended the long delay in allowing paramedics to enter the home, saying of the SWAT team, "They still don't know how many shooters are inside, how many guns are inside and they still have to assume that they will be ambushed if they walk in this house."

    But Scileppi, Vanessa Guerena's lawyer, said officers were "circling their wagons."
    "They found nothing in the house that was illegal," he said. Framing the delay in providing medical attention as a tactical decision is "nonsense," Scileppi said. "There was an ambulance there in two minutes and they were never allowed in."

    He pointed out that when Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was shot in Tucson, law enforcement let paramedics have access to victims in a far more volatile situation.

    "The pieces don't fit. I think it was poor planning, overreaction and now they're trying to CYA," Scileppi said.

    "Every time he was under my command, he definitely pulled his weight," said Leo Verdugo, his master sergeant in Iraq, who helped arrange for Guerena to be buried in his Marine dress blue uniform. "I have a hard time grasping how something so tragic could happen."

    He speculated that perhaps it was a case of mistaken identity. "At the wrong place at the wrong time in his own home," he said.

    Vanessa Guerena is "devastated and distraught" and seeking justice for her husband and two sons, said her lawyer. "The main thing she wants is her husband's name cleared and his honor restored."

    The oldest boy, Jose, turns 6 on Tuesday. "He went to school, came back and never saw his daddy again," said Ortiz. As for Joel, "He's asking, 'Why did the police kill my daddy?'

    "We were so worried when he was over there fighting terrorism, but he gets shot in his own home," Ortiz said. "The government killed one of their own."

    Tucson SWAT Team Defends Shooting Iraq Marine Veteran 60 Times - ABC News

  11. tlfreek

    tlfreek Vancouver WA Active Member

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    wow. Man it sounds like he was trying to defend his family. I need more facts. This reads and looks badly on the TPD. I know there is more to the story - I'd like to know what that is.
  12. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Heart crushing story. A MARINE with TWO tours of duty under his belt killed trying to defend his family.

    But lets go back and tell the story how it needs to be told.

    A MAN,with a GUN was confronted by the SWAT team,in his own house

    I could care less who is right or wrong,it was any of us,veteran or not,shot in his own home.
    They were serving a warrant.Did they tell the home owner (the MAN,not the MARINE) it was the police?

    If so,the MARINE with two tours of war under his belt,should have know to be unarmed and on the floor when they came in.

    Me,as a civilian AND a WHITE man who has lived without much prejudiced against him,would have laid down if the swat team was outside

    So a latino in a bad neighborhood with two tours of duty ,should have know better than to draw a gun with the swat team outside.

    The safety was on so he couldn't have shot first.
    Yeah,so? He was pointing a gun at the swat team.
    Again,did they identify themselves?

    He was a MAN on the floor pointing a gun at the swat team.Not a war vet at that time.
    As I said in the other thread,I have worked with and known lots of guys who signed up in lieu of jail.Being a vet does not mean you are not able to kill a cop or sell drugs.

    There WAS A WOMAN AND BABY in the house.So this should have made the Swat team slow the f down with the shooting.71 rounds?Come on

    The medics were not allowed in the house for an hour.
    The medics know what they are getting into,if they want to go in the house,they ain't skeered.
    This wasn't a good move and will cost the Tuscan Police Dept lots of money

    And the LOEs lied left and right about everything.Heck,no need to lie about if the guy shot first or not,just if they had identified themselves.
    But the wife couldn't tell they were cops?

    This was messed up on both ends.But remember anyone can shoot a gun and kill a cop.Veteran or not.

    But everyone should be able to be in there home and not expect the swat team to bust down the wrong door and kill the man of the house,trying to defend his home.

    I'm sorry for the family...if the guy wasn't selling drugs or doing the home invasions? he was accused of.

    If he was,well he brought this on himself and his family.

    If he wasn't,well even if he was,the wife will get paid big time.
    Probably not what she hope for.
  13. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Shot 60 times out of 71 rounds fired???? I would assume the police entered with M4's but that would mean at least 3 officers shot. If it was pistols ... good grief .... I understand the concept of shoot until the threat is no longer a threat but 60 times?????
  14. Generator

    Generator Bend Member

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    Can't testify if your .. well didn't/doesn't the mob and the mexican mafia use this tactic? When someone kicks down your door without identifying themselves with a warrant aren't they just invading. Shoot, I forgot about the Illinois (IIRC) ruling. So anyone runs through your door, surrender quick, they are probably not criminals, they probably work for the government. Be nice, or you'll be charged with 'un-niceness to a civil servant'
  15. dmancornell

    dmancornell Portland, OR New Member

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    Even if he were guilty of some sort of crime, does that justify being home invaded and summarily executed by stormtroopers?
  16. spider

    spider Hillsboro Well-Known Member

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    That really sucks
  17. cade

    cade Hillsboro, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Any one who thinks the information they get from a newspaper is accurate needs to talk to me about a bridge I have for sale.
  18. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm,didn't I say that in my post?
  19. armedredneck

    armedredneck Oregon Active Member

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    I don't know. This kinda looks bad from both sides. But it could be mistaken identity. The home they lived in was suspected of being involved in a home invasion ring? So...probably not a single family home. Probably apartments. Alot of people in and out....easy to mess up doors and addresses......

    Very possible they lived in a low income housing area that tends to harbor these types.

    My Grandparent's home was hit by a raid. They were after the house next door and this was a fairly rural area. Their nearest neighbor was over 300 yards away. The dealers had moved out about two weeks prior. My Grandma told them that.

    Not uncommon for a veteran to have military style equipment.

    Sleeping after working a graveyard shift at the mine? 9:30 AM raid? He was probably dead to the world when his wife started yelling and they kicked in his door.

    I probably would have reacted likewise.

    My wife woke me at 1:30 AM when her water broke, screaming at me with all the lights on to get her a towel. I said "your water didn't break, you just pi$$ed the bed". I was THAT out of it. Took me 5 minutes to really wake up to what was happening.

    People beating on the wrong door when I'm dead asleep? My wife screaming "Don't shoot, I have a baby!". I probably would have immediately jumped to the same conclusion the suspect did.

    So I don't doubt he pointed a rifle at the people kicking his door in.

    Just sucks he had to take 60 for it. Unfortunate situation. The police could have shown a little more restraint it looks like, but, I wasn't there. When the whole story comes out we'll know what really happened...but from this point of view it doesn't look very good for the PD.
  20. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

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    All I see is speculation on facts that aren't available yet. To fervently condemn the police at this point is not done out of proof so much as out of emotion.
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