Arguing with anti-gunners

[CEF1959]

It's a varied lot. Let me throw out some others, the point being that it's dangerous to overgeneralize or oversimplify, because you are likely thereby to underestimate the opposition:


5. People who see and hear nutjobs or those who confuse gun-rights with racism or anti-government fervor, leading people to react and say, "Uh, he's a freak. I'm against that guy and all his friends."

6. People who are OK with guns in the home and for hunting but don't want to see some doofus they don't know and therefore have no reason to trust walking through the local Safeway packing heat.

7. People who think it'd be better to put up with crime than have to worry about bullets whizzing over their kids' heads as some citizen exchanges gunfire in a local McDonalds during a robbery.

8. People who naively believe that we can successfully disarm the entire country and thereby make it safe.

9. People who naively are willing to allow the federal, state, and local governments to have a monopoly on firepower, forgetting the lessons of the past, which suggest that a citizenry's check on government tyranny is the only effective check.

 

[Cougfan2]

6. People who are OK with guns in the home and for hunting but don't want to see some doofus they don't know and therefore have no reason to trust walking through the local Safeway packing heat.

CEF makes a good point here. Not engaging the "FUDS" and helping them realize that if the govt. bans one kind of firearm that will not be the end of it is crucial. We also need to be careful how we pitch our argument so we don't come off as nut jobs that they just tune out.

Most huge shifts in social direction are not achieved swiftly, but incrementally over along period of time so people eventually get used to their rights being slowly eroded. As I said, the death of a thousand cuts.

 

[CEF1959]

Most huge shifts in social direction are not achieved swiftly, but incrementally over along period of time so people eventually get used to their rights being slowly eroded. As I said, the death of a thousand cuts.

Good point. It's not the stormtroopers at the door confiscating your guns that are the danger. The dangers come from things like an ammo tax, the magazine restriction, the import ban, FFL restrictions, interstate purchase restrictions, restrictions on classes of arms, the little licensing requirement. All of us have been sheepishly going along with those for years, because we don't want to risk breaking the law. And we keep letting them do it. It's become downright patriotic to cede power to the feds.

As I've said repeatedly here, I don't believe in crying "Wolf!" at everything or getting all hysterical everytime some nutty idea is proposed in Washington. But I do believe in vigilance against the "death by a thousand cuts" Cougfan2 describes. And we've been cut a LOT already.

Will we do anything about it? I doubt it. That's the beauty of the incremental approach.

 

[dario541]

I may have mentioned this before, but I once heard a German woman on PBS TV. She was talking about growth of anti-Jewish activity during the 1930's. She said that she personally never thought much about any Jewish "problems" before the Nazis. But afterward, the constant chatter against Jews via the media (radio and newspapers in those days) gradually changed her to thinking that Jews were responsible for the country's problems. The incessant propaganda was sort of a "mass hipnotism". You heard it so much, it began to possess your brain and bring you to the Nazi way of thinking.
It is the same way today in America. Via almost every avenue of the media, we constantly hear about the evil of guns. People who once had no opinion have heard the anti-gun clap trap until it festers in their minds and they begin to believe it. This is the power of the multi-media and how the government can use it to control the "sheeple"!
This is the problem for people who want to restore FREEDOM to the country. We do not have a slicked up lap-dog multi media system at our disposal the way the government does. We have to carefully work one-on-one.
I hope I make sense!

 

[CEF1959]

It is the same way today in America. Via almost every avenue of the media, we constantly hear about the evil of guns. People who once had no opinion have heard the anti-gun clap trap until it festers in their minds and they begin to believe it. This is the power of the multi-media and how the government can use it to control the "sheeple"!
This is the problem for people who want to restore FREEDOM to the country. We do not have a slicked up lap-dog multi media system at our disposal the way the government does. We have to carefully work one-on-one.
I hope I make sense!

It does make sense, but I respectfully disagree that people are being inundated with only one message. I watch responsible gun ownership on television on weekend morning hunting and shooting shows. There are tons of internet sites devoted to guns and gun rights (such as this one). Fox News and Rush are out there broadcasting to hundreds of millions (though not my cup-o-tea). The NRA is out there and VERY influential in its informational efforts. We have several widely-read magazines devoted to guns.

No, I don't think it's a lack of information. It's a good faith policy disagreement among people who care about America but have different visions of what it ought to look like. And we can only hope to win by being smart, informative, factual, and vigilant, while at the same time avoiding association with blatantly nutty points of view. This is the approach that the NRA has taken, and I think it's sound. That's not to say I agree with every statement the NRA makes, but overall it's sound: Make the arguments, stay relevant by not endorsing goofy or hysterical nonsense, and trust in the system our brilliant founding fathers gave us.

You may, of course, disagree with my pro-NRA approach.

 

[torpedoman]

The point being that most ant-gunners are that way out of fear. Some you can convince to shed their fear and take their destiny into their own hands by becoming a gun owner/shooter/carrier/armed homeowner.

With others, the best you can do is shift their fear. From fear of guns in general, to fear of becoming a victim of violent crime. When arguing this, specifics are important.
There is data here that can help you do that. Not that I am a fear monger, quite the contrary. I do believe if they are going to be afraid, their fear should be properly grounded. Explain to them how the powerbrokers have lied, and you have the data to back it up.
I pays to be able to point out that even if they choose not to own or carry a gun, the odds are they will live in a safer community if guns and carry rights are allowed to remain in place.

It is not fear it is stupidity, they are brainwashed and truly believe that a call to 911 is all it takes to deliver a cop to your door in time to prevent anything from harming them. Even reports of 911 calls going unanswered or long delays will not convince them otherwise.

 

[CEF1959]

It is not fear it is stupidity, they are brainwashed and truly believe that a call to 911 is all it takes to deliver a cop to your door in time to prevent anything from harming them. Even reports of 911 calls going unanswered or long delays will not convince them otherwise.

See, I don't believe that most people who oppose gun rights are stupid or brainwashed any more than I believe the view posited by some on the left that gun rights advocates are trailer-trash knuckle-draggers. Some gun rights opponents are stupid. Some gun rights advocates are stupid. Some gun rights opponents are brainwashed by liberal media. Some gun rights advocates are brainwashed by conservative media.

I think it's inaccurate and counterproductive to paint anti-gun people as cariacatures as though they all suffer from some common pathology. We have to make our arguments, not scream about how stupid or hopelessly brainwashed the other side is.

Jamie6.5's original post here is (I think) a valuable contribution in that regard.

 

[claypigeon]

It does make sense, but I respectfully disagree that people are being inundated with only one message. I watch responsible gun ownership on television on weekend morning hunting and shooting shows. There are tons of internet sites devoted to guns and gun rights (such as this one). Fox News and Rush are out there broadcasting to hundreds of millions (though not my cup-o-tea). The NRA is out there and VERY influential in its informational efforts. We have several widely-read magazines devoted to guns.

No, I don't think it's a lack of information. It's a good faith policy disagreement among people who care about America but have different visions of what it ought to look like. And we can only hope to win by being smart, informative, factual, and vigilant, while at the same time avoiding association with blatantly nutty points of view. This is the approach that the NRA has taken, and I think it's sound. That's not to say I agree with every statement the NRA makes, but overall it's sound: Make the arguments, stay relevant by not endorsing goofy or hysterical nonsense, and trust in the system our brilliant founding fathers gave us.

You may, of course, disagree with my pro-NRA approach.

The problem with the types of pro gun information that you speak of, is most of them are preaching to the choir. I don't believe these venues are frequented by those who are on the fence, not to mention the anti gun population.

The media however reaches a vast amount of people on both sides and often emphasize when guns are involved in crimes.

 

[CEF1959]

The media however reaches a vast amount of people on both sides and often emphasize when guns are involved in crimes.

Agreed, but the media aren't monolithic. Think about Fox, conservative talk-radio, the NY Daily News, the Washington Times, the Wall Street Journal, the New Republic, the Weekly Standard, the National Review... And that doesn't even cover the blogosphere, internet sites such as this one, monthly magazines, or all the other conservative papers owned by Rupert Murdoch. News gets spun right and left, and both sides claim the other is more tilted and more influential.

It's a lot easier to say, "The other side is stupid and brainwashed" than it is to say, "I didn't do a good a job being persuasive with my message."

 

[LibertyorDeath]

Here is my take. The majority of the anti-gun populace merely fear what they do not understand. Back in the days of early man, what men and women did not understand often killed them. It's a survival instinct that has survived through time. Seeing the news coverage of shooting and robberies link guns to bad guys inherently making them evil. TV and movies almost always depict the bad guys with guns and the hero as someone that is or was either a policeman or a super elite special forces type. The media rarely shows where the average citizen uses a firearm to protect himself or the life of another. These are the type of people that can most easily be shown the error of their ways.

Another group of people are those that know or are a victim of gun violence/firearm suicide. I am married to one of those and I have been trying to change her mind for a while now.

Then there are the gun grabbers. Those that want guns gone forever. They are the reason the 2nd Amendment was put in place. They say it's for world peace, to reduce gun violence or to end the atrocities of hunting poor innocent animals (You know because deer typically run to cougars and say "Yeah, it's cool go ahead and eat me, you look hungry.").

Unless we want our rights from being taken away we need to educate others and show them that guns are not evil.

 

[claypigeon]

Agreed, but the media aren't monolithic. Think about Fox, conservative talk-radio, the NY Daily News, the Washington Times, the Wall Street Journal, the New Republic, the Weekly Standard, the National Review... And that doesn't even cover the blogosphere, internet sites such as this one, monthly magazines, or all the other conservative papers owned by Rupert Murdoch. News gets spun right and left, and both sides claim the other is more tilted and more influential.QUOTE]

True. But most of these are once again preaching to the choir.

 

[AGCR]

Especially the purdy ones!

That's the kind of creepy attitude I have to fight against when I'm preaching the gospel of John Browning.
Also, dismissing anti-gun people as brainwashed and ignorant is amusing cos that's what they say about pro-gun folks as well. My mother was in the Million Mom March and she's about the smartest person I know. She was just raised with the ethic of Christian pacifism and failed to pass it on to me.
At any rate, it's pretty easy to covert people in my social scene. Hardly anyone I encounter is really anti-gun, they just can't stand conservatives. As soon as I show people all the liberal, gay, leftist and anarchist pro-gun groups out there they can't wait to go out shooting.

 

[Trlsmn]

Originally Posted by Trlsmn View Post
Especially the purdy ones!

That's the kind of creepy attitude I have to fight against when I'm preaching the gospel of John Browning.
Also, dismissing anti-gun people as brainwashed and ignorant is amusing cos that's what they say about pro-gun folks as well. My mother was in the Million Mom March and she's about the smartest person I know. She was just raised with the ethic of Christian pacifism and failed to pass it on to me.
At any rate, it's pretty easy to covert people in my social scene. Hardly anyone I encounter is really anti-gun, they just can't stand conservatives. As soon as I show people all the liberal, gay, leftist and anarchist pro-gun groups out there they can't wait to go out shooting.

Sarcasm often eludes the uptight judgmental crowd. That's your personal problem Mr "progressive" not mine. As usual quick to label, slow to understand and accept, not at all "progressive. Fail!

 

[AGCR]

Sarcasm often eludes the uptight judgmental crowd. That's your personal problem Mr "progressive" not mine. As usual quick to label, slow to understand and accept, not at all "progressive. Fail!

Sarcasm or not– still creepy.

But while we're on failure, it might be worth mentioning that my pro-gun magazine is on of the best selling journals in local Portland bookstores. And I can hardly go out drinking or dancing in this town without people coming up to me and saying they can't stand Republicans and hate the NRA but want to learn how to shoot. Not to mention being invited to explain gun politics to local gay rights groups as well as on NPR radio past year-
But that's only some of my recent failures. I guess I just don't like preaching to choirs.

 

[Trlsmn]

Sarcasm or not– still creepy.

The fact is I was responding to Ding who is a personal real world friend, he understood the joke I assure you. Your not understanding it doesn't make me creepy it just means you're ignorant.

But while we're on failure, it might be worth mentioning that my pro-gun magazine is on of the best selling journals in local Portland bookstores. And I can hardly go out drinking or dancing in this town without people coming up to me and saying they can't stand Republicans and hate the NRA but want to learn how to shoot. Not to mention being invited to explain gun politics to local gay rights groups as well as on NPR radio past year-
But that's only some of my recent failures. I guess I just don't like preaching to choirs.

Want a cookie?

 

[AGCR]

Want a cookie?

Only if it was leavened with the yeast of incomprehension, filled with the chocolate chips of myopia and baked in a hubris oven.

 

[Trlsmn]

Want a cookie?

Only if it was leavened with the yeast of incomprehension, filled with the chocolate chips of myopia and baked in a hubris oven.

No they are full of hate, intolerance, and right wing propaganda, isn't that what you real wish to hear? It would make your hating so much easier.

 

[AGCR]

No they are full of hate, intolerance, and right wing propaganda, isn't that what you real wish to hear? It would make your hating so much easier.

...Cos I'm clearly so hateful.

How did someone with such a big chip on their shoulder get to be a moderator?

 

[ZeroRing]

...Cos I'm clearly so hateful.

How did someone with such a big chip on their shoulder get to be a moderator?

Still the humor eludes...

 

[Trlsmn]

...Cos I'm clearly so hateful.

How did someone with such a big chip on their shoulder get to be a moderator?

I really don't have a chip on my shoulder you just don't know me enough to understand my sarcastic yet brilliant sense of humor. The fact is I don't shrink away from confrontation I am a give and take kind of guy and I don't make or accept excuses. Just look back to post 32 and you will see I reacted to your comment. People that don't like to be challenged on their words will soon find they are talking to a mirror.