Are Verticle Pistol Grips Legal On AR Style Pistols?

[Tomahawk67]

This thread sounds like a calguns defeatest festival. Speculate or opinionate all you want , but if you build an AR pistol from a stripped lower and it is >26" oal, then it can legally have a vert grip.

 

[The Heretic]

This thread sounds like a calguns defeatest festival. Speculate or opinionate all you want , but if you build an AR pistol from a stripped lower and it is >26" oal, then it can legally have a vert grip.

ATF cite?

Or should I just say Tomahawk67 said it was ok when I am in court?

 

[Tomahawk67]

ATF cite?

Or should I just say Tomahawk67 said it was ok when I am in court?

You can say whatever you want. Keep analyzing yourself into not even owning a pellet gun if it makes you sleep better at night. I know I sleep like a baby because I don't try to imagine what the atf never said.

 

[The Heretic]

You can say whatever you want. Keep analyzing yourself into not even owning a pellet gun if it makes you sleep better at night. I know I sleep like a baby because I don't try to imagine what the atf never said.

When it comes to the ATF and their vacillating interpretation of the laws and their rules/regulations, it is often better to be a bit paranoid than to find ones self in court, or worse, prison.

But you do what you think is best.

 

[Tomahawk67]

When it comes to the ATF and their vacillating interpretation of the laws and their rules/regulations, it is often better to be a bit paranoid than to find ones self in court, or worse, prison.

But you do what you think is best.

What's best is to not live paranoid.

 

[The Heretic]

What's best is to not live paranoid.

Just because I am bit paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me.

I may be cynical now, but I wasn't always cynical - it took decades of experience to get where I am. Too many law abiding innocents put in prison or otherwise ruined by the government for me to not pay attention to what happened to them, and be cautious enough to try to avoid the same fate.

Doesn't mean I own even a pellet gun as you allude, but when it comes to grey areas where there is some question as to what is legal and what isn't, I try not to step into those areas.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

in most cases it would make it an AOW.

hand stops are OK

AFAIK AOW stamps are $5 if you want to buy an AOW. $200 stamp to make one

 

[Tomahawk67]

The XO 26 has been sold legally since 2011 and is a firearm , not an AOW nor SBR
BFSIII™ Equipped FRANKLIN ARMORY® XO-26-S™

 

[Member 34319]

What's best is to not live paranoid.

Good post.

Most folks don't realize the ATF is not out there everyday looking for folks doing things wrong.

Most of the time it's the law abiding gun owners that self police and heavily shame anyone doing anything remotely illegal.

Post a picture of an illegal SBR or a vert grip on a Glock. You'll get a pack mob on your butt faster than any contact by the ATF.

 

[The Heretic]

The XO 26 has been sold legally since 2011 and is a firearm , not an AOW nor SBR
BFSIII™ Equipped FRANKLIN ARMORY® XO-26-S™
View attachment 485443

And it started as a 'firearm', not as a pistol or long gun.

It falls into that niche just like the Mossberg Shockwave, the Remington Tac-14. Such 'firearms' cannot have started as a pistol, or shotgun or rifle from the manufacturer. So you cannot turn an existing pistol or shotgun or rifle into such a 'firearm' yourself either, even if you are the manufacturer of that pistol or shotgun or rifle. Once 'manufactured' as a pistol, shotgun or rifle, that firearm cannot be made into a 'firearm' (the legal niche that the XO, Shockwave and Tac-14 fall into). Clear as mud?

The original question was whether adding a forward vertical grip to an AR pistol was legal if the pistol was 26"+ OAL. The answer to that question is unclear to me, but what is clear to me is that you cannot convert a 'pistol' into the type of 'firearm' that the XO or the Shockwave is due to the ATF requirement that such a 'firearm' never have been a pistol or shotgun or rifle at any point in its legal life.

Also, as an aside, in Orygun and quite a number of other states, only handguns can be carried concealed - not 'firearms' which are, by federal law, legally neither pistols nor shotguns nor long guns. So 'firearms' such as the XO or Shockwave cannot be carried concealed in those jurisdictions whether you have a concealed carry permit or not.

As such, until I see a letter/ruling/court precedence regarding an AR pistol of 26"+ with a forward grip being declared legal, I will err on the side of caution in saying that I would not agree that it is legal per federal law with an SBR or AOW stamp. Now if the AR pistol owner added a barrel longer than 16" and was 26" OAL, it falls under the legal definition of a rifle and then a forward vertical grip could be added without risk of going to prison.

It is all illogical. Any law abiding citizen could own or even manufacture any of the configurations as long as they complied with the law and ATF rulings/regs. They can build/buy an AR pistol, but they can't put a vertical grip on it. They can convert the pistol to a rifle by changing the barrel to 16"+ and making sure the OAL was 26"+ and then put the grip on it and be legal. They could buy or build an XO from an 80% lower, add enough barrel and pistol brace/buffer tube to make it 26" OAL and put a forward vertical grip on it, and basically have the functional equivalent of an SBR without the SBR tax stamp.

But I have yet to see a verified opinion from the ATF that any pistol (legal definition) that is 26" OAL can have a vertical grip without being an SBR or AOW (ATF says it is an AOW: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/o...er-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun/download). Until someone shows me something on the ATF site that states otherwise, I will advise not doing this. As for letters - anyone can fake a letter from the ATF and spread it around - so unless I get one in the mail or some other reputable source without a financial stake in the game (e.g., NRA, GOA, SAF) publishes said letter or it shows up on the ATF site, I will take leave to doubt the authenticity of said letter. Even with a verified letter, the ATF has vacillated back and forth before and even has suddenly decided the law prohibits something as simple as a high capacity shotgun (e.g., the Street Sweeper).

 

[The Heretic]

Good post.

Most folks don't realize the ATF is not out there everyday looking for folks doing things wrong.

They very much are. Otherwise they are not doing their job.

Sometimes relatively innocent people who are misinformed about the law get caught up doing something technically illegal and go to prison, or at least to court - either way, they get can get into a lot of trouble.

I try not to be too paranoid about the government, but having been a federal LEO myself, I know just how eager government agencies can be to show that they are 'effective' and if some relatively innocent citizen is hurt, then that is just "too bad so sad" that they unknowingly and unintentionally broke the law or some rule or regulation.

Call me paranoid but I don't take legal advice from the internet without some other authoritative source backing it up.

 

[Member 34319]

Not saying they aren't out there doing their job, I was working for a manufacturer when a prior employee called the ATF to report improper handling of serialized items.

They showed up a month later to perform an inspection, not knowing to anyone but the former employee.

I'm just trying to explain my experiences, and in those, I've never read one article online, or known someone who was subject to the fullest extent of the law for mistakenly making an illegal firearm of some sort.

I have read about folks that were doing other illegal things, usually something that gets on the radar of the local police or even the FBI, then they are found dealing drugs, making full autos, and even attaching vertical grips to things that they weren't supposed to.

 

[The Heretic]

Feds raid gun parts stores despite court order
National Guardsman's career destroyed by ATF

 

[The Heretic]

Back to the OP:

Black Aces Tactical, the SigTac SB15 arm brace and ATF's misguided determination letter

The germane part of the article is in the first half where it states that a firearm (in this case a shotgun) with pistol brace and forward vertical grip and OAL of 26"+ was a 'firearm' under Title 1.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Anyone try a Ryker Grip on their AR pistol?

[SHOT 2018] Ryker FISTGrip, an Offset, Picatinny mounted "Horizontal Grip" - The Firearm Blog

 

[The Heretic]

Anyone try a Ryker Grip on their AR pistol?

[SHOT 2018] Ryker FISTGrip, an Offset, Picatinny mounted "Horizontal Grip" - The Firearm Blog


View attachment 485526

I would think that would count as a forward grip and therefore not legal on a pistol.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

I would think that would count as a forward grip and therefore not legal on a pistol.

FAQs

Is it legal to put The Ryker Grip™ on an AR pistol?

Ryker has requested an evaluation by the ATF to determine whether The Ryker Grip™, as an exemplar of the side-mounted grip category, would make a pistol shorter than 26" in length an AOW and subject to the requirements of the National Firearms Act. We will publish the formal response when received.

 

[Diamondback]

This discussion just sent me checking... and now not only is my favorite mag-carrier VFG no longer available, the distrubotor that got me my screamin' deals on Israeli toys is no longer distributing 'em either.

 

[Member 34319]

Feds raid gun parts stores despite court order
National Guardsman's career destroyed by ATF

Both examples are of a case that was already on the radar of another agency as I stated.

I'm not trying to argue that this stuff isn't illegal or that there aren't cases where folks like you mentioned got bothered by the ATF.

What I'm trying to say is that a Joe Schmo unknowingly, could go years with an extra grip on his pistol and never see any ATF agents raid his/her home. But, the day that person posts a picture of it online, they would be absolutely ridiculed by gun owners. Even after posting online, the I've never read anywhere, or heard of any stories where the ATF has shown up at someone's house to arrest someone.

 

[The Heretic]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/o...er-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun/download

'To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, "Application to Make and Register a Firearm." '

I think this pretty much answers the OP's question; i.e., an AR pistol with a barrel shorter than 16" does not become a rifle even if the OAL is 26"+ and you cannot make a title 1 'firearm' (e.g., Mossberg Shockwave, Franklin XO, etc.) from a pistol or rifle.

The only way you can legally have a forward grip on an AR, without it being an AOW/SBR is if you configure it as a rifle with a barrel of 16"+ and OAL of 26" or more.

The title 1 'firearm's (e.g., Mossberg Shockwave, Franklin XO, etc.) can have a forward grip because they are not and never were a pistol, a shotgun or a rifle as defined by the GCA and NFA.

Also, vertical or not doesn't matter, it is the forward grip that makes it not a pistol but an AOW because "the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand."

Interestingly they seem to ignore that the fore end of ARs is designed to be held in addition to the pistol grip - but then some pistols like the Thompson Contender are also. So if they made that assertion stick then a number of other more conventional pistols would suddenly become illegal also.

So it is a bit of wink wink, we won't say it if you don't kind of interpretation of the law?

This is why I am slightly paranoid about gun laws - they can be interpreted however the governing agency wishes, and ATF has shown a tendency to vacillate back and forth on their interpretations of the laws and their rule/regulation making.