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Now they make adjustable pistol brace.
But I think your walking a thin line with those.
I have a SB brace on one of mine it's not adjustable.and I have a kak buffer and a blade on the other one.it is adjustable.
But you set it where you want it and lock it in place with a bolt and alan key
 
Now they make adjustable pistol brace.
But I think your walking a thin line with those.
I have a SB brace on one of mine it's not adjustable.and I have a kak buffer and a blade on the other one.it is adjustable.
But you set it where you want it and lock it in place with a bolt and alan key
I have the same KAK brace you do. I haven't built my upper yet.
 
I found this letter floating around the web, if it is legit it would give me the answer i was looking for.

"This is in reply to your recent email to the Firearms Industry Programs Branch (FIPB) Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) seeking information on measuring the overall length of a pistol fitted with an arm stabilizing brace.

Regarding muzzle devices (silencers, flash suppressors or muzzle breaks etc.)Provided that an added muzzle device was permanently attached and completely non-removable it would count towards the overall length and barrel length of the weapon it was permanently attached too.

No specific torque amount is used to determine if a muzzle device is permanently attached. It is the method of attachment which is utilized to determine if the muzzle device is permanently attached. In order to be considered as "permanently attached" a muzzle device would have to be attached to a weapons barrel by means of welding, high-temperature (1100º F) silver soldering; or blind pinning.

Overall length is measured from the end of the arm stabilizing brace to the end of the barrel, be sure that the weapon is level, a large framing square can help with this. If a vertical forward grip is fitted and the stabilizing brace is needed to keep the pistols overall length at 26 inches or greater then the vertical forward grip must be removed before the stabilizing brace. If a vertical forward grip is placed on a pistol which is less than 26 inches in overall length an "any other weapon" (AOW) is created. Creating an AOW without first completing the proper NFA forms, paying the required 200.00 tax and receiving approval from the ATF NFA Branch is unlawful and would subject the violator to arrest and prosecution. We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your evaluation request.

Michael S Knapp Program Manager Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Firearms and Explosives Industry Division"
 
It becomes an "AOW": "weapon concealable on the person designed to be fired with two hands" same as the MP5K
Not even a AOW. AOW's are subject to the provisions of the NFA of 1935. Over 26 OAL with a brace/grip but
not a buttstock makes it a "Firearm". Not pistol nor rifle nor SBR/SBS or AOW. Mossberg Shockwave is a "Firearm". Oddly enough the OSP---for purposes of the background check---classifies the Shockwave as a PUMP PISTOL.

" For the purpose of conducting an Oregon FICS check, the Mossberg Shockwave and the Remington 870 TAC-14 should be entered into the dealer-facing FICS web application or phoned in as a handgun and select "pistol pump" or "PP" for the designated firearm type."
 
I found this letter floating around the web, if it is legit it would give me the answer i was looking for.

"This is in reply to your recent email to the Firearms Industry Programs Branch (FIPB) Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) seeking information on measuring the overall length of a pistol fitted with an arm stabilizing brace.

Regarding muzzle devices (silencers, flash suppressors or muzzle breaks etc.)Provided that an added muzzle device was permanently attached and completely non-removable it would count towards the overall length and barrel length of the weapon it was permanently attached too.

No specific torque amount is used to determine if a muzzle device is permanently attached. It is the method of attachment which is utilized to determine if the muzzle device is permanently attached. In order to be considered as "permanently attached" a muzzle device would have to be attached to a weapons barrel by means of welding, high-temperature (1100º F) silver soldering; or blind pinning.

Overall length is measured from the end of the arm stabilizing brace to the end of the barrel, be sure that the weapon is level, a large framing square can help with this. If a vertical forward grip is fitted and the stabilizing brace is needed to keep the pistols overall length at 26 inches or greater then the vertical forward grip must be removed before the stabilizing brace. If a vertical forward grip is placed on a pistol which is less than 26 inches in overall length an "any other weapon" (AOW) is created. Creating an AOW without first completing the proper NFA forms, paying the required 200.00 tax and receiving approval from the ATF NFA Branch is unlawful and would subject the violator to arrest and prosecution. We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your evaluation request.

Michael S Knapp Program Manager Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Firearms and Explosives Industry Division"
Interesting this states the pistol brace adds to the overall length, though it is not permanently installed. Yet the muzzle brake can't add to the length of not permanently installed. I've read before that the pistol brace on an AR style platform wouldn't count to overall length, only the buffer tube would.

I wonder if this letter includes those or is for pistol braces that are fixed, like those that attach to a CZ Scorpion.

Of coarse someone somewhere is likely poking the bear with a clarification letter.

I have one gun that fits this category, over 26" without pistol brace and muzzle device, you won't find a vert grip on it. Just not a sound game plan.
 
I have one gun that fits this category, over 26" without pistol brace and muzzle device, you won't find a vert grip on it. Just not a sound game plan.
This is why as much as I like gimmicky mag-carrier VFG's, the shortest-barrel AR you'll see me put one on is 12.5", and that's only if it has either an A5 buffer, LAW sidefolder or both. IIRC, brace-to-crown with the brace ratcheted as short as it'll go my SBM4/A5/LAW'ed 10.3" came in at 25.9" OAL. (Here in WA, the only definition we have that I've found is "below 16" barrel, designed to be fired from one hand" but by precedent Pistol Thompsons have been allowed even over 26" with VFG--again IIRC, so take it with a grain.)
 
Not even a AOW. AOW's are subject to the provisions of the NFA of 1935. Over 26 OAL with a brace/grip but
not a buttstock makes it a "Firearm". Not pistol nor rifle nor SBR/SBS or AOW. Mossberg Shockwave is a "Firearm". Oddly enough the OSP---for purposes of the background check---classifies the Shockwave as a PUMP PISTOL.

" For the purpose of conducting an Oregon FICS check, the Mossberg Shockwave and the Remington 870 TAC-14 should be entered into the dealer-facing FICS web application or phoned in as a handgun and select "pistol pump" or "PP" for the designated firearm type."

Correct, as long as it is >26" it should not qualify as an NFA weapon (AOW) because it is not "Capable of being concealed upon the person" however <26" it's an AOW.
 
A bit off topic--but isn't it a bit weird that a Mossberg 590 Cruiser 14" AOW would be a no-no under your trench coat
on a Oregon CHL, but a Mossberg Shockwave 14" would be OK.

Cruiser AOW
aow_crusier__65153.1504792510.jpg

Shockwave "pump pistol"
23322.jpg
 
A bit off topic--but isn't it a bit weird that a Mossberg 590 Cruiser 14" AOW would be a no-no under your trench coat
on a Oregon CHL, but a Mossberg Shockwave 14" would be OK.

Cruiser AOW
View attachment 483509

Shockwave "pump pistol"
View attachment 483510

Makes perfect sense, sort of like 922r and the import point system, come to think it just like most all of the infringement.
 
A bit off topic--but isn't it a bit weird that a Mossberg 590 Cruiser 14" AOW would be a no-no under your trench coat
on a Oregon CHL, but a Mossberg Shockwave 14" would be OK.

Cruiser AOW
View attachment 483509

Shockwave "pump pistol"
View attachment 483510
Just as weird as a 5.56 Mk 18 CQBR being perfectly legal on a "no shouldering" pistol lower and even CCW eligible, but just swap on a stock and it becomes Too Dangerous For Proles SBR...
 
In Oregon, correct. That's no longer a pistol. Oregon CHL is only for handguns.

A bit off topic--but isn't it a bit weird that a Mossberg 590 Cruiser 14" AOW would be a no-no under your trench coat
on a Oregon CHL, but a Mossberg Shockwave 14" would be OK.


My understanding is that the Oregon CHL allows you to conceal any firearm, not just pistols. Can anyone verify with actual links to Oregon laws (ORS) where it is stated that only handguns may be concealed?

ORS 166.250 has several unlawful possession criteria, one of which is "Carries any firearm concealed upon the person."

ORS 166.260 "Persons not affected by ORS 166.250" -- among law enforcement and other persons, section 1 (i) says persons that have a CHL are exempt from 166.250

So I think this means that a CHL allows a person in Oregon to carry any concealed firearm, not just handguns.
 
Nope. 166.250 prohibits carrying any concealed firearm

166.260 (1) (i) exempts a licensed person to carry a concealed HANDGUN.

You could probably make a case under 166.260 (3) that you can carry any firearm concealed it you are
going to or from a shooting range or a hunting or fishing trip.

The Oregon permit is a "Concealed Handgun Permit"--and that's exactly what it means.
 
It's $200 to file a form 1 regardless of whether it's a suppressor, SBR, SBS, or AOW. It's only $5 to TRANSFER an AOW. You build one, it's $200.

As far as the original question: if your AR pistol is over 26" not including the muzzle device (unless it's permanently attached) then it's no longer a pistol, it is a "firearm." According to the ATF, "firearms can NOT have a stock, but can have a forward vertical grip. They also can't be carried concealed in Oregon. An AR pistol that's under 26" OAL, however, CAN be carried concealed as a pistol, including in your vehicle.

Agree that this is probably mostly correct - since the firearm is a "firearm" and not a pistol, then it can't be carried concealed with a concealed handgun permit.

However, that depends on the definition of a "handgun" in whatever state you have the permit in.

I would question whether making a pistol longer than 26" by the addition of barrel length, makes it a "firearm" in the eyes of the federal law. My understanding of this particular niche of federal law, is that the "firearm" can never have been either a pistol or a long gun - it has to come from the manufacturer as a "firearm". For that reason (in MY unprofessional opinion), taking any handgun/pistol, that was purchased as a pistol, and configuring it to be 26"+ OAL does NOT make it a "firearm" (like the 'shockwave' "firearms"). So putting a forward vertical (not 'verticle') grip on any pistol, whether it is 26"+ OAL or not, is still NOT legal without it being registered as an AOW.

Now if you 'manufacture' the firearm yourself (e.g., from an 80% AR lower) then you could probably designate it as a 'firearm' as long as the resulting 'firearm' is 26"+ OAL and does not have a buttstock (apparently a 'pistol' brace is ok, as long as in all configurations where it is operable, it is always 26"+ OAL).

Also, a "firearm" (that is neither a pistol nor a shotgun nor a rifle), can never become a pistol or a rifle or a shotgun in the eyes of the federal law - I think it will always be a "firearm" (so someone thinking they can go back and forth between a "firearm" and a pistol or rifle may get in trouble).

Disclaimer: IANAL and this is my personal opinion.
 
166.260 (persons exempt from 166.250):

"A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 (Issuance of concealed handgun license) and 166.292 (Procedure for issuing) to carry a concealed handgun."

This describes a person (licensed to carry a concealed handgun). It does not describe an act (only while carrying a concealed handgun).

So I do believe that by having a concealed handgun license, a person may carry concealed any firearm.
 
Agree that this is probably mostly correct - since the firearm is a "firearm" and not a pistol, then it can't be carried concealed with a concealed handgun permit.

However, that depends on the definition of a "handgun" in whatever state you have the permit in.

I would question whether making a pistol longer than 26" by the addition of barrel length, makes it a "firearm" in the eyes of the federal law. My understanding of this particular niche of federal law, is that the "firearm" can never have been either a pistol or a long gun - it has to come from the manufacturer as a "firearm". For that reason (in MY unprofessional opinion), taking any handgun/pistol, that was purchased as a pistol, and configuring it to be 26"+ OAL does NOT make it a "firearm" (like the 'shockwave' "firearms"). So putting a forward vertical (not 'verticle') grip on any pistol, whether it is 26"+ OAL or not, is still NOT legal without it being registered as an AOW.

Now if you 'manufacture' the firearm yourself (e.g., from an 80% AR lower) then you could probably designate it as a 'firearm' as long as the resulting 'firearm' is 26"+ OAL and does not have a buttstock (apparently a 'pistol' brace is ok, as long as in all configurations where it is operable, it is always 26"+ OAL).

Also, a "firearm" (that is neither a pistol nor a shotgun nor a rifle), can never become a pistol or a rifle or a shotgun in the eyes of the federal law - I think it will always be a "firearm" (so someone thinking they can go back and forth between a "firearm" and a pistol or rifle may get in trouble).

Disclaimer: IANAL and this is my personal opinion.
You raise some interesting points but the last one has to be wrong or we have a bunch of people in this great country who have broke the law. When people go in to their FFL and buy/pick up an AR lower, my understanding is they are almost always transferred as an other firearm. These happy people hop, skip and whistle on their way home and proceed to put together their weapon of choice rifle, pistol or possibly "other firearm". In the last paragraph of your comments, you stated that a "firearm" can never become a pistol, rifle or a shotgun in the eyes of federal law. if you are right potentially millions of law breakers are running around out there with illegal rifles and pistols.

The good news if you are right, is that a person could build a "pistol looking" AR over 26 inches but with vertical grip on fore end and be OK because the weapon originated as an other firearm and stayed as an other firearm.

The bad news if you are right is that, we can not legally build any pistols or rifles with the AR lowers. And the people who have already done so, broke the law.

I hope you are mistaken on this matter.
 
Last Edited:
You raise some interesting points but the last one has to be wrong or we have a bunch of people in this great country who have broke the law. When people go in to their FFL and buy/pick up an AR lower, my understanding is they are almost always transferred as an other firearm. These happy people hop, skip and whistle on their way home and proceed to put together their weapon of choice rifle, pistol or possibly "other firearm". In the last paragraph of your comments, you stated that a "firearm" can never become a pistol, rifle or a shotgun in the eyes of federal law. if you are right potentially millions of law breakers are running around out there with illegal rifles and pistols.

The good news if you are right is that, A person could build a "pistol looking" AR over 26 inches but with vertical grip on fore end and be OK because the weapon originated as an other firearm and stayed as an other firearm.

The bad news If you are right is that, we can not legally build any pistols or rifles with the AR lowers. And the people who have already done so, broke the law.

I hope you are mistaken on this matter.

Good points and I think you are correct. Not sure though that what is put on a 4473/etc. makes an AR lower into a 'firearm' like a "shockwave" shotgun.

However, if those are a "firearm" and stay a "firearm", then they are not a pistol and cannot be carried concealed in most states?

I do believe OTOH that you can configure a "firearm" as a rifle.

This seems a grey area to me and I would have to consult a lawyer with expertise/knowledge of the issues.
 
You raise some interesting points but the last one has to be wrong or we have a bunch of people in this great country who have broke the law. When people go in to their FFL and buy/pick up an AR lower, my understanding is they are almost always transferred as an other firearm. These happy people hop, skip and whistle on their way home and proceed to put together their weapon of choice rifle, pistol or possibly "other firearm". In the last paragraph of your comments, you stated that a "firearm" can never become a pistol, rifle or a shotgun in the eyes of federal law. if you are right potentially millions of law breakers are running around out there with illegal rifles and pistols.

The good news if you are right, is that a person could build a "pistol looking" AR over 26 inches but with vertical grip on fore end and be OK because the weapon originated as an other firearm and stayed as an other firearm.

The bad news if you are right is that, we can not legally build any pistols or rifles with the AR lowers. And the people who have already done so, broke the law.

I hope you are mistaken on this matter.
One more point, if @The Heretic is right, there is a solution. The manufactures could supply lowers that are documented as rifles, pistols, etc. My guess is that would require them to be built as such before leaving the manufactures possession. That wouldn't be much help to the millions that have already bought them.
 

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