Are Tokarevs overrated?

[taylor]

I'd been thinking of getting one and was surprised to learn after checking 3 different loading data sites; the 9mm can be reloaded to higher velocities using comparable size bullets- a 85grn in a 9mm can be loaded to a higher velocity than 7.62x25 ,and 90..95..100 the same thing.
I think for a inexpensive military sidearm with cheap surplus ammo available its OK, its not the all powerful round I've been hearing everywhere. Anything a 7.62x25 can do a 9mm can be loaded to do and better.
Don't forget the 9mm was also used in the Schmeiser smg in WW2 at high velocity. It has been loaded down by manufacturers since WW2 for legal reasons.
I'm interested in your thoughts on this, if I'm in error please correct me.

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[jordanvraptor]

I don't reload so I cannot speak to what the 9mm can be reloaded to do nor what the Tok round could do reloaded. I have done a side by side test with a Tokarev TT-33 and my Beretta M9 pistols. Using surplus Polish ammo, the Tokarev often went through both front and rear panels of a class 2A kevlar vest laying on the ground. It never failed to completely penetrate the front panel. The 9mm 115 gr FMJ penetrated maybe 3 layers of the front panel. A .45 ACP didn't even penetrate one layer. This is the only test regarding the Tokarev round which I personally conducted. The Tokarev round is superior in penetration due to its .30 caliber bullet and higher velocity than the 9mm. The Tok is a 7.62x25mm casing. The 9mm is 9x19mm. The Tok is more like a necked down .38 super than it is comparable to a 9mm in my opinion. I sold my Tokarev pistols because the cheap surplus ammo isn't that cheap anymore. I bought them purely as military collectables not for defensive use and conducted the test of the kevlar vest because I had read on the interweb that it could penetrate a vest. Now you have read the same... Believe it, or conduct your own test.

 

[taylor]

I believe you, I looked up ww2 9mm Schmeiser ammo velocity it was 1300 fps with a 115 or 124grn bullet. You can stick a 80grn bullet on a 9mm case and get 1600fps which is higher than what a Tokarev gets with a same bullet. All I'm saying is the potential of a 9mm to achieve greater velocity and energy with the same bullet seems true.

 

[revjen45]

The Tok is fun to shoot and JHP/JSP ammo is available. It is the gold standard for penetration on body armor. BTW, 9mm Para is 9X19mm.

 

[taylor]

Corbon 90grn 9mm+P 1550fps, its a hollowpoint, faster and heavier than a 80grn 7.62x25 hardball= MORE muzzle energy. Whatever the Tokarev did to body armour this round would do more and its not even +P+, the 9mm has much better handloads.

 

[Mutoman]

It seems like you could change up a 9mm cartridge to outperform the 7.62 x 25, yet given equal treatment, would not the Tokarev still outperform?

 

[Redcap]

It seems like you could change up a 9mm cartridge to outperform the 7.62 x 25, yet given equal treatment, would not the Tokarev still outperform?

Yes.

 

[taylor]

What do you mean equal treatment? load data shows 80 or 90 grn equal bullets can be loaded to higher velocities in a 9mm.
I think a equal comparison would be a solid steel 1911 chambered in 9mm, shooting an equal weight bullet, it would still be going around 200fps faster than the Tok.

 

[jordanvraptor]

The Tok is fun to shoot and JHP/JSP ammo is available. It is the gold standard for penetration on body armor. BTW, 9mm Para is 9X19mm.

I was thinking of comparative velocities of similar rounds and typed without thinking. Thanks for the correction.

We also tested a .454 Casull fired from a Ruger Alaskan and it would not penetrate the front panel either. I think its something to do with sectional density or something like that. Think icepick vs KaBar....

I just mention the test because I feel it shows that the Tok is not outdated and can penetrate where other calibers cannot.

I have heard of people using a sabot and .223 bullets to try to replicate the 5.7 round. Don't know how accurate it would be though...

 

[taylor]

But have you tested a 9mm round of equal weight loaded accordingly? Test the Corbon 90grn going at 1550fps and get back to me.

 

[jordanvraptor]

Corbon is spendy but I believe their 90 gr is a JHP. JHP is designed to expand on impact. It would not penetrate both front and back panels. Use a 90 gr FMJ at that velocity and who knows. In any case, I dont have the funds to conduct such a test. Feel free to conduct your own test.

 

[oregonty]

I have shot body armor with the 9mm fmj. This was the cheap factory plinker bulk ammo. It had no problem going through one side and out the other. This was at about 15 ft though. I do have to say that this was used body armor that had exceeded its duty life. Im not sure how that affects things. This was by no means a scientific test. I was just seeing what pistols would shoot through it. It stopped the 40cal and 45 just fine. It did not stop the 357 sig. LOL. I know this is a bit off topic though. Sorry!