Are new WA CCW Permits now NICS Exempt or ?

[Misterbill]

Whoever told you this is flat full of beans.

I just (today, Friday Oct. 28th) talked with the most knowledgeable FFL I know and they said this rumor is nonsense.

Also, FWIW, the CPL is given for FIVE years. It's entirely conceivable that someone could be convicted of a prohibited crime but still retain a CPL that hadn't been officially revoked.

You still need to go thru NICS. The CPL only gets you out of the WA STATE (Yes, we still have that nonsense on the books) waiting period on handguns.

 

[ironmike86]

Whoever told you this is flat full of beans.

I just (today, Friday Oct. 28th) talked with the most knowledgeable FFL I know and they said this rumor is nonsense.

Also, FWIW, the CPL is given for FIVE years. It's entirely conceivable that someone could be convicted of a prohibited crime but still retain a CPL that hadn't been officially revoked.

You still need to go thru NICS. The CPL only gets you out of the WA STATE (Yes, we still have that nonsense on the books) waiting period on handguns.

Can you explain which part is full of Bean? The Nics Check? The Atf webpage? or What?

 

[Misterbill]

Quite specifically your INTERPRETATION of the NICS page.

Don't get me wrong, it might seem bizarre, but any Washington FFL that doesn't do a NICS check will have trouble with the ATF. Again, I just checked with a very knowledgeable FFL (someone I trust) and was assured that a WA CPL did NOT exempt you from a NICS check. If they are wrong, they are wrong. But no, AFAIK you are not in any sense exempt because you have a WA CPL, regardless of issue date.

This is an FFL who will push the limits, so no, I don't think they are wrong in this interpretation.

If you have a problem with repeated denials, they DO offer a pin number which should cure the problem. (Usually this happens when someone of the same name and birth-date is a prohibited person). Hope that's helpful. -Bill

 

[ironmike86]

Yeah thats pretty weird when the Atf page says it does?? Why would they put that there? With that in writing I don't think a FFL will get into trouble no doing a Nics check?? Dunno.

 

[Misterbill]

Yeah thats pretty weird when the Atf page says it does?? Why would they put that there? With that in writing I don't think a FFL will get into trouble no doing a Nics check?? Dunno.

This would be far from the first time that ATF posted something that was incorrect. The laws are so Byzantine at this point that no one knows exactly WHAT the laws, administrative rulings etc. all boil down to.

ATF: The only federal agency who should be a convenience store, not a federal agency.

 

[gcban]

I found the answer. I contacted the WA Dept. of Licensing about the NICS Exemption for WA CPL holders permits issued on or after 7/22/11.

Basically WA State has aligned its criteria with the Federal ATF standards for issuance of a WA CPL based on the Federal Firearms Prohibited Person criteria. Before this WA issuance of a CPL did not meet all of the same criteria as Federal Law so someone prohibited by Federal law from possessing a firearm may have still been able to obtain a WA CPL permit, not anymore.

So, based on that change by WA State the ATF sent an open letter to all WA FFL's stating that WA CPL's issued on or after 7/22/11 are now exempt from NICS background checks for firearms purchases, BUT that's not the end of the story.

WA law has to be updated to allow this exemption to be used so even though new permits qualify for NICS exemption all WA CPL's holders will still receive the NICS background check for every firearms purchase from WA FFL's until WA law is changed.

The person I talked with at the DOL stated that there is a Bill being put together to submit to The House to update this so the exemption will be able to be used in the future. Right now though its status quo my fellow CPL holders. Keep the faith and be safe! - G

Misterbill, I didnt know if you read one of my prior post in this thread so its quoted above. I got my info straight from the WA Dept of licensing. I would guess it will probably be close to a year before we see this happen but i do think it will happen. In Arizona to make sure that someone who has a CWP is not prohibited the FFL either types in or calls in to an automated phone system just to make sure your CWP number is still valid. Normally done on a computer. If its valid you are good to go. No CWP or invalid CWP its a NICS check for you. The AZ CCW Unit and NICS coordinate data continuously so any change in either database (prohibited person) will mark your CWP invalid in the system.

As for the PIN thing (VAF) with NICS. I looked into that and when I spoke with the person at NICS they informaed me that even with VAF on file, you can still be delayed. Also WA coming in line with Federal criteria. If someone is prohibited from posessing a firearm by federal standards, why should WA State issue them a CPL? Having the CPL does not make it legal to have a firearm in that case (Difference in State and Federal Standards) Several other states have made this same move. Just my 2 cents worth. - G

 

[Misterbill]

Misterbill, I didnt know if you read one of my prior post in this thread so its quoted above. I got my info straight from the WA Dept of licensing. I would guess it will probably be close to a year before we see this happen but i do think it will happen. In Arizona to make sure that someone who has a CWP is not prohibited the FFL either types in or calls in to an automated phone system just to make sure your CWP number is still valid. Normally done on a computer. If its valid you are good to go. No CWP or invalid CWP its a NICS check for you. The AZ CCW Unit and NICS coordinate data continuously so any change in either database (prohibited person) will mark your CWP invalid in the system.

As for the PIN thing (VAF) with NICS. I looked into that and when I spoke with the person at NICS they informaed me that even with VAF on file, you can still be delayed. Also WA coming in line with Federal criteria. If someone is prohibited from posessing a firearm by federal standards, why should WA State issue them a CPL? Having the CPL does not make it legal to have a firearm in that case (Difference in State and Federal Standards) Several other states have made this same move. Just my 2 cents worth. - G

With all respect, Wa DoL has no say over ATF rulings.

If it were MY FFL on the line I would not exempt anyone for whom I did not have a specific ATF letter of clarification from.

A post on a website would not even come close to the warm and fuzzy feeling I would require from ATF before I sold a gun. The consequences from an "illegal" sale (according to the ATF investigator) are so dire for a FFL that no information coming from a STATE agency would make me give the go-head.

If you lose your FFL you are out of business. Period, end-of-story. Stuff on a web-site, barring an advisory letter from the ATF is not sufficient for me to relax my standards. We've seen too many cases of state vs. fed agencies that thinking the state had info that was operative would be a mistake on the part of an FFL.

Again, no disrespect and thanks for your call the the DoL, but they are NOT the ATF. and ONLY the ATF has authority in these matters.

 

[gcban]

Oh I completely agree with you and I have never stated that the new WA CPL issued since 7/22/11 are NOW exempt from NICS checks. I am only stating that since that issue date they now meet NICS exemption criteria should the State of Washington choose to use that exemption criteria for firearms background checks. The State of Washington has no say over ATF rulings agreed, but they do have a say over how firearms sales, licensing and background checks will be conducted in the State of Washington.

Right now it is business as usual for EVERYONE, no changes. In the future I believe we will transition into a system such as Arizona and several other states use that will exempt CPL permit holders from NICS background checks for firearms purchases. This is the same way that most of the other states transitioned into that system, this is the first step. Changing WA law is the next step. Then comes the computer/check system to validate the CCW permit validity and you are off to the races.

The WA DOL site has the new posted CPL permit qualification changes on it which brings our CPL issuance inline with federal firearms guidelines, signed by our Governor herself, link below!

<broken link removed>

If Im wrong about this, in 1 year drop me an email here and dinner and drinks are on me, if Im right I like steak! Deal? Take Care! - G

 

[ironmike86]

What gcban is saying is the DOL is the one who intrepid the ATF rule. Same as your FL dealer intrepid to you.

 

[Misterbill]

Oh I completely agree with you and I have never stated that the new WA CPL issued since 7/22/11 are NOW exempt from NICS checks. I am only stating that since that issue date they now meet NICS exemption criteria should the State of Washington choose to use that exemption criteria for firearms background checks. The State of Washington has no say over ATF rulings agreed, but they do have a say over how firearms sales, licensing and background checks will be conducted in the State of Washington.

Right now it is business as usual for EVERYONE, no changes. In the future I believe we will transition into a system such as Arizona and several other states use that will exempt CPL permit holders from NICS background checks for firearms purchases. This is the same way that most of the other states transitioned into that system, this is the first step. Changing WA law is the next step. Then comes the computer/check system to validate the CCW permit validity and you are off to the races.

The WA DOL site has the new posted CPL permit qualification changes on it which brings our CPL issuance inline with federal firearms guidelines, signed by our Governor herself, link below!

<broken link removed>

If Im wrong about this, in 1 year drop me an email here and dinner and drinks are on me, if Im right I like steak! Deal? Take Care! - G

Dinner and drinks sounds GREAT! I'll look you up the next time I'm on the wet-side! -Bill

 

[TCOV]

gcban has posted correct information. I get the Washington Arms Collectors newsletter and a couple others and they say that this change is still being worked out and is federal approved but still needs work at state level and it is being addressed. Should be just a matter of time and the date for approved permits should be post 7/22/11. Usually you can renew a permit up to 3 months before it expires but hopefully they will allow for this change. I don't know how this will affect long arm purchase as the cpl only applies to handguns and is not used now for a long arm purchase. While a upin from FBI does not gaurantee no delay or denial for handgun purchase mine has eliminated my problems and the two delays I had were changed to proceed when the dealer called back to question the delay.

 

[gcban]

Thanks TCOV, so I am not losing my mind then is what you are saying! The NICS exemption is such a better deal. Came down to AZ this morning walked into Big 5 Sporting goods down here, laid down my AZ Permit, WA Drivers License, credit card, filled out 4473, FFL typed my AZ CWP permit number into the computer and out the door I went in 10 minutes with my new shotgun in hand. Still haven't received a proceed from NICS delay after 4 days and counting trying to purchase same item at Big 5 in my home state of WA. I'm sorry but that just makes me laugh. Big brother at its finest.

I would hope that WA will allow permit holders to renew early when the change is finally made. I would gladly pay the additional cost for a new WA CPL over a renewal fee to have the exemption. Maybe WA will also do like most other states do and just legislate that even though it is a CPL, its NICS exemption extends to all FFL handgun and long guns sales. AZ has a concealed weapons permit CWP, not a license.

I think I may do the VAF UPIN thing also at least until the WA NICS thing is up and running. I'm tired of the constant erroneous delay responses and the headache of having to drive back a second time to collect my firearm purchase. How long did it take you to get your UPIN back after submitting your paperwork? Thanks for chiming in, I appreciate it. Take care! - G

 

[TCOV]

gcban I got my upin while appealing a denial a few years ago and it was part of the appeal and was good when the appeal was ruled in my favor. I don't know the process now but I think it's on the BATF or FBI website. If you get delays, and there are many reasons why that might happen, it is worth getting. There is a space for it on the 4473 form so it works for long arms where your cpl doesn't matter. Since I had mine I have had two delays, where before I allways had delay or denial, and the dealers called back and after a little trash talk from the nics guy for not waiting they gave a proceed. Both of those delays were when the nics check was done by computer so I think it has to do with time frame waiting for a response as the upin will require a couple transfers on the call. I have never had a problem when dealers used the phone for the call. I don't know if Walmart or Big 5 would follow up a delay with a phone call or not but the delay seems to be very short time. Hope this helps.

 

[gcban]

Thanks TCOV, just got back to Seattle (With my AZ purchased shotgun, still no NICS proceed from Big 5 here in WA after 5 days, great system huh?).

I am going to go find my paperwork from my erroneous denial and NICS correction/reversal. If I remember right it had all the stuff for the UPIN VAF stuff in the packet. They sent my fingerprint card back also so hopefully that will suffice for the VAF application. My name is the same or close to someone else who was dishonorably discharge from the military about 2 years ago so I got denied once, which is how I found out about this other similar named dude. Did the NICS appeal, they write back months later and say "you're right" its not you and I have been delayed on 7 of the 9 WA firearms purchases I have made since then, been delayed on 0 of my 6 AZ purchases since then. In fact even when I was denied that one time in WA my AZ CWP never went on an invalid status, go figure!

It will be nice if the Interstate Firearms Reform Act is passed and National Reciprocity Bill passes also, but one step at a time. For now I will be happy when NICS background checks are not a part of every firearms purchase for WA CPL holders. I will let you know how the UPIN thing works out. Once I get it I need to do a firearms purchase for a Christmas present and we will see if I get delayed with the UPIN also. Take care! - G

 

[SteveXKR]

Found this relating to the discussion :
<broken link removed>

 

[gcban]

That's what I was looking for, thank you so much. I knew it had to be more then just coincidence that the NICS exemption page had been updated. I can't wait for this to be put in place. From my conversation with the WA DOL, the person I spoke with stated that the bill to make this law is already drafted up and ready to be introduced and passed.

As you can see from my earlier post I live in NICS **** due to some other yahoo with a similar name and a dishonorable military discharge (I have never been in military). Get delayed constantly. This NICS exemption is great. No NICS delays (if they are too busy or it's just your turn for a random delay) and no false denies. If your CPL permit is still valid, you are good to go.

Misterbill, if you're reading this (and I know you are) drop me a line and bring your credit card next time you come over to the wet side of WA, you're buying the steaks and we're not going to Sizzler!

SteveXKR, Thanks for finding this. Take care and be safe! &#8211; G

(PS: I am still on a NICS delay after 2+ weeks (10/25/11) for my shotgun purchase at Big 5 here in WA, even though I just purchase another firearm here in WA this Saturday (11/5/11) with only a 1 day NICS delay, great system huh!)

 

[ironmike86]

Right on guess taking anyones word even if he's a FFL dealer really doesn't mean anything without paper to prove it. Enjoy you STEAK

 

[jmac1911]

Well, does anyone know the answer to the OP's question? I have done a simple internet search and can not find a postive answer. All I could find was this - WA State Licensing: Firearms Purchase/Delivery Requirements
Ed[/QUOTE


Yes this true. Bill 1583 will allow all CPL holders issued on or after July 2011 to be NICS exempt. The Bill 1583 was moved forward but not yet acted into law. So until then all CPL holders will still have to go thru a NICS check. It also had to be amended because the LEO was not in the Bill. It will happened if nothing stops it.

 

[btownemail]

I think it's still a case by case thing. I just renewed my permit about 6 months back and I still get delayed. I did get arrested when I was 21 for dumb bubblegum (assault 4th), but the case was dismissed. Since I was put through the system, I've always gotten delayed. It would be amazing to be able to walk out the same day. It seems pointless to have people with CPLs wait as I always have my sidearm with me, and that includes when I go to buy another gun and it seems like it's a waste of everyone's time to make a CPL holder wait.

 

[gcban]

Well, does anyone know the answer to the OP's question? I have done a simple internet search and can not find a postive answer. All I could find was this - WA State Licensing: Firearms Purchase/Delivery Requirements
Ed[/QUOTE


Yes this true. Bill 1583 will allow all CPL holders issued on or after July 2011 to be NICS exempt. The Bill 1583 was moved forward but not yet acted into law. So until then all CPL holders will still have to go thru a NICS check. It also had to be amended because the LEO was not in the Bill. It will happened if nothing stops it.

I think this is the Bill you're referring to. WA Bill number is 1839, not 1583. It's good to see this is up again this year. Last year Adam Kline let it die and never put it up for a vote, then he posted a video on YouTube about how he is tired of always giving and never getting from the gun group. Someone needs a hug!

Here is link to current Bill. Be safe! -G

HB 1839 - 2013-14