AR15 Quality vs Crap: How do you tell the difference?

[IronMonster]

A $375 bench built AR
A $2100 Krebs AK

Thats what floats my boat.

 

[Boboclown]

Why anyone would spend $600-700-800 on a sub-standard AR just blows me away but whatever it is their money.

Cause price does not always dictate quality or lack thereof.

 

[Boboclown]

Yeah OK

So higher price tag means more quality? Gee, maybe I should compare Colt to PWS then. And I'm not talking about their piston ARs.

 

[Boboclown]

You mean the lowest bidder?

 

[Boboclown]

They did get the military contract, as a general rule lowest bidder gets it.

You're the one saying price dictates quality. PWS DI for roughly $1,400 compared to a Colt 6920 that's maybe $900. How about Colt's piston AR vs PWS' piston AR?

Not being a fanboy either, was going to buy a Sig instead had it not been at a gunshop I refuse to support.

 

[jluck]

If I loose it ( have it stolen from a vehicle ) I am not going to be happy but it won't be as hard to replace as my nice one. I probably shoot my Sr556 more than I do the Delton. Its just the way it is.

I thought you were trying to say you're afraid of damaging it. I can understand that concern, I don't use a .308 as a truck gun but if I did it would be a relatively cheap one. My truck has been broken into a few times already so I get it.

If I knew it would never get stolen I would have a fn fal in the vehicle. I prefer a 308 over a 223 any day.

Auto insurance?

 

[Boboclown]

So did FN. Are they crap too?


No I did not, that is perhaps what you inferred and I cannot help that. In fact, I said:

"You don't need to spend $1500 let alone $3200 for a quality AR. A Colt 6720 can be had for $800 plus shipping/FFL fees and makes for an excellent basic AR. Just over a grand will put you in a BCM complete with BHF ELW barrel and KeyMod rail. Why anyone would spend $600-700-800 on a sub-standard AR just blows me away but whatever it is their money."



First off all ARs are piston driven they not are DI, that is a common mistaken terminology. The bolt acts as the piston is standard ARs. However be as that may, what you are referring to as a "piston" AR are IMO hype and not needed. Their only real use is for hard run full auto SBRs with cans, other than that the Eugene Stoner system is fine.

Few things.
1. FN got the contract, yes. FN isn't crap. If anything, they got the contract from Colt because they underbid Colt. Colt just got a military contract, with FN as well, meaning they're both tied for lowest bidder, or the government is trying to save Colt's bubblegum. With lowest bidder in mind, more likely the former than the latter. Doesn't mean either is crap, never said lowest bidder is crap. Just that the lowest bidder generally, if not always, gets the contract.
,
2. Wasn't the post I was referring to. I said price does not always dictate quality or lack thereof. You replied "yeah OK." Not exactly a choice of words people to with when agreeing, just saying.

3. No, but they're pretty much the closest thing to it as far as what we're comparing, so for all intents and purposes I'm calling it DI. And while piston ARs may be hyped, does not mean they are bad or a waste of money. Sometimes people want them just to have something different, not because its somehow a "cure" to an issue that isn't there. Otherwise I would have dumped my DIs and replaced them with pistons, not buy only one piston. Not that it matters because I never said piston>DI. Just Colt vs. PWS. Comparing both Colt's piston driven AR to PWS' piston driven AR, and both of their DIs. Would have said Noveske or BCM but no personal experience with either of those.

 

[IronMonster]

First off all ARs are piston driven they not are DI, that is a common mistaken terminology. The bolt acts as the piston is standard ARs. However be as that may, what you are referring to as a "piston" AR are IMO hype and not needed. Their only real use is for hard run full auto SBRs with cans, other than that the Eugene Stoner system is fine.

Um.... No

The definition of a direct impingement system is that gas acts directly on the bolt with nothing but a way for the gas to get there. AR's are the quintessential definition of direct impingement. In no way could a DI AR be considered a piston system, as there is no piston or system for a piston between the bolt and the operating force/gas.

In a piston system, the gas interacts with something other than a bolt, in a DI it interacts with the bolt directly (Direct Impingement)

Calling the bolt a piston does not make it a piston, its still the bolt.

As ol Abe said.

"How many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg? 4! Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg"

 

[erudne]

The New Zealand Army To Replace The Steyr With A Lewis Machine & Tool AR-15 Style Rifle
According to a <broken link removed> , The New Zealand Army has chosen to replace the Steyr AUG currently in service with an AR-15 Style rifle manufactured by Lewis Machine & Tool. The US-based manufacturer was one of multiple companies chosen for the Individual Weapon Trial Phase, which was conducted between March 2nd and June 1st of 2015.



After the trials, LMT was selected by the Ministry of Defence as the preferred Tenderer. Pending a Due Dilligence activity by the Ministry, negotiation of a contract package, and New Zealand Government approval, LMT will be awarded a contract to provide the rifles. The exact model of LMT rifle hasn't been revealed, although according to sources, the rifles are expected to start fielding in 2016-2017.

The New Zealand Army is already well acquainted with Lewis Machine & Tool, having selected and fielded a LMT DMR since 2012. Here is a video released by the NZDF of the LMT DMR in action:

 

[No_Regerts]

I was under the impression FN was building rifles due to a need for rifles that couldn't be met within a timeframe by Colt and since FN builds M240 and M249s they were capable of meeting spec right away. I could be wrong, it was from a military procurement source that seems to know his stuff.

 

[Boboclown]

I was under the impression FN was building rifles due to a need for rifles that couldn't be met within a timeframe by Colt and since FN builds M240 and M249s they were capable of meeting spec right away. I could be wrong, it was from a military procurement source that seems to know his stuff.

Possibly, but the general rule is lowest bidder gets the contract. So it could be either one or both. Not that its a bad thing, just means they make stuff to the military's standard at the lowest price.

 

[Brutus57]

My SHTF AR has a quality HBAR BCM middie 14.5 with a 1-7 twist, an Aero lower, PSA lpk but With an ALG ACT trigger. My cheaper truck gun AR pistol has cmplete PSA lower and a melon ite barreled Radical FA complete upper. So first build not real cheap...second about half as much to build but I am pleased with all but trigger on the pistol but, hey the complete LOwer was $121.00 so a little trigger work or replacement is easy after I see how it feels after several hundred rounds.
Both worked for me on my budget.

Brutus out

 

[SPHBS]

Possibly, but the general rule is lowest bidder gets the contract. So it could be either one or both. Not that its a bad thing, just means they make stuff to the military's standard at the lowest price.

Price is always a factor but rarely (if not ever) the only one in federal procurement. The bid that represents the 'best value' is supposed to prevail. Other factors that can be considered in determining the best value include the vendor/supplier/contractor's previous products/work, reputation, experience, expertise, etc.

If a new start up 'ABC, Inc.,' with no history bids $1000 and Boeing bids $10,000 for a new space vehicle, I'd bet Boeing gets the contract.

 

[Boboclown]

Price is always a factor but rarely (if not ever) the only one in federal procurement. The bid that represents the 'best value' is supposed to prevail. Other factors that can be considered in determining the best value include the vendor/supplier/contractor's previous products/work, reputation, experience, expertise, etc.

If a new start up 'ABC, Inc.,' with no history bids $1000 and Boeing bids $10,000 for a new space vehicle, I'd bet Boeing gets the contract.

True, but if its between, for this example, two well known companies with roughly equal quality, and both meet the specs/standards, and both have the means of production to meet the demand, who gets it? Generally the lower bidder does. Sure there are other things to go by it, but that's why I said generally and not only.

 

[SPHBS]

True, but if its between, for this example, two well known companies with roughly equal quality, and both meet the specs/standards, and both have the means of production to meet the demand, who gets it? Generally the lower bidder does. Sure there are other things to go by it, but that's why I said generally and not only.

Agree.

Then you have the lobbyists/politicians/etc., exert their influence...

 

[Garg]

How do you tell the difference?

Experience. There is no substitute.

 

[Boboclown]

QC is a big factor in a quality AR.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/688249_First_bad_PSA_experience___.html

Parts and QC. Simple solution would be to not get anything from them with a FSB. Their parts are still good. Take one with a low-profile gas block, disassemble, reassemble, and GTG.

 

[Boboclown]

Said from them. There's a reason I only get their free-floating uppers. At least those can be disassembled and reassembled properly.

 

[Brutus57]

My experience on my recent "assembly" since it doesn't qualify as a build to me with complete upper and lowers to start. $109.00 for COMPLETE PSA blem pistol lower, (really scratchy trigger)....exterior looks ok, maybe a slight shadow in the paint....married it to an on sale Radical Firearms 10.5 melonited barrel complete upper $200!, threw in a plain jane BCG whose brand I can't remember since I bought it during the Panic. $20.00 gun show new charging handle, Bushnell RDS, cheap BUIS! ,probably a mistake as I had a hard time zeroing them at 50 yds (only spot available at public range). I got them close and then got the RDS closer.... Ran about 70 rounds of .223 and it ran flawlessly except for the understandably scratchy trigger. I'll take a shot at fine tuning the trigger since I plan to use it as a truck gun when camping....if that doesn't satisfy, then an ALG-ACT will be a purchase to upgrade. I pretty much got what I expected out of this build for the money invested. The basic firearm functions well and I can make decent improvements as the budget/time allows.

Brutus Out

 

[Vorpalis]

Posts #20 and 21 best mirror the answers I gathered when asking the same question, though others also make good points.

Two things I'd like to add that I don't see mentioned already are:
1) Be wary of "newness" – be it a coating, a material, or brand.
There are tons of new companies making ARs now, and while some know their craft well and make rifles equivalent to the big names, others make crap, but haven't been around long enough for people to figure that out. Even if the company also makes time machines, or the guy running it was a rocket surgeon for Super Impressive Company before making ARs, doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Likewise, there are a lot of new coatings and materials going into rifle parts, and all advertise that they're better than anything else. The rub is that they're new, and many haven't proven themselves, despite the exuberant praise from adoring fans. For example, a given coating might work fantastically in a range gun, but utterly fail if that gun were taken into combat. Or some treatment could work great on a bolt, but create serious issues if used on a bolt carrier. Or a given type of steel might work fine in a jet engine, but that doesn't mean it will work fine in a rifle.

2) Some parts matter more than others. A $50 lower will probably work just as well as a $200 lower, but a $50 upper probably won't work as well as a $200 upper, and a $50 bolt carrier group almost certainly won't work as well as a $200 one. (And for the trolls, OMFG YES THE EXCEPTION YOU'RE ABOUT TO POINT OUT IS DEFINITELY TRUE AND NEGATES EVERYTHING I'VE SAID I'M SO SO SORRY ).

So, how do you tell the quality of a specific part by a specific manufacturer, or learn what's an exception to this advice? Ask – both on this forum and Google for posts in other forums. Pay attention to the people whose posts are well-regarded by other users, whose answers come from professional experience (though some with credentials are still idiots), and have been around for a while. Ignore folks who bicker or flame other's posts, or are overly passionate about their pet brand, or who haven't been around a while (Like me. You shouldn't believe me. Like, at all ).
Also, if you're excited or curious about some technology, material or coating, or if you find disagreeing answers to a question about one of these, read-up on it. Learn why it's good or bad, and under what conditions. I often start with Wikipedia, because it tends to be fairly accurate on technical matters, and gives you info from outside the context and biases of the gun world.