AR10 build vs buy

[cameronhu]

Are there any good reasons to buy a complete Armalite AR10 rifle rather than buying an Armalite AR10 upper and lower separately and putting them together? Do complete rifles have matching serial numbers or something? Or are you just paying several hundred bucks more for a magazine, a case and a cleaning kit?

I can't see a big cost savings to assembling a DPMS rather than buying a complete rifle, but Armalite seems to be a different story.

Thanks-

ps. Don't need any comments on why I should really be buying a FAL

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[huntpotter]

Check this one out on Gunbroker.
http://v4.beta.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=143979155
Looks like you can't build one cheaper than this.

DPMS .308 mags are the most available, and around $18-20 ea.

You can get better uppers from DPMS that have more bells and whistles, ie rails, forward assist, sights. But this one gets you into the platform at a good price. If you ask for this model locally, with coctailer, Brightwater Ventures, and others, they could probably order it in, somewhere close to this price.

 

[huntpotter]

this one has better pics of it.
http://v4.beta.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=144047624

 

[PhysicsGuy]

Three words: Federal excise tax

 

[cameronhu]

Three words: Federal excise tax

Hmm. Hadn't thought of that. So If I purchase a complete firearm from Armalite, they pay an 11% excise tax on the "sale price" (and surely pass the cost to me) - but if I order the parts, they are exempt (and therefore might not pass on additional costs). Is this correct?

 

[Trlsmn]

I put my Armalite AR10 together from parts when I found deals. I am in it less than $900 (less mags) with all new parts.

 

[NoAim]

I did something similar. I ordered a web special upper, a stripped lower, LPK, and buttstock. Overall it was cheaper than ordering a complete rifle. Some labor involved with assembling the lower, but nothing too dramatic.

I will tell you right now that Armalite's backlog is pretty bad. And they prioritize complete rifles over parts/upper assemblies.

Can you 16" SASS carbine (minus the gas block) for under $1300?

 

[smonk]

I've built several AR15's and if you shop around you can put one together for less than 700.00. But the parts I've seen for the .308 AR10 seem to be more scarce and expensive. Even the stripped lower is about 275.00 (Compared to 125.00 for the AR15.) I've never even seen an AR10 "Kit" containing all parts but the stripped lower.

I don't think you can beat a DPMS for less than 900.00 assembled.

 

[Gunner3456]

My only issue is to be sure the AR-10 is truly that, and is fully chambered for 7.62. Some of the DPMS I've seen are .308. It appears to me that they don't claim to be AR-10's, as in "DPMS LR 308."

I want to be sure I can put NATO rounds in mine.

Comments?

 

[onearmedswordsman]

My only issue is to be sure the AR-10 is truly that, and is fully chambered for 7.62. Some of the DPMS I've seen are .308. It appears to me that they don't claim to be AR-10's, as in "DPMS LR 308."

I want to be sure I can put NATO rounds in mine.

Comments?

Just a quick one:
.308Win Pmax: 62Kpsi
7.62 NATO Pmax: 60.2Kpsi

With 7.62 NATO is not like with 5.56 NATO (62.4Kpis max) and its weaker brother.223 REM (55Kpsi max).

 

[Trlsmn]

My only issue is to be sure the AR-10 is truly that, and is fully chambered for 7.62. Some of the DPMS I've seen are .308. It appears to me that they don't claim to be AR-10's, as in "DPMS LR 308."

I want to be sure I can put NATO rounds in mine.

Comments?

Armalite is the only company that can call their rifle an AR10, that is why you will never see that on any other brand.

 

[Gunner3456]

Armalite is the only company that can call their rifle an AR10, that is why you will never see that on any other brand.

OK, so can you reliably chamber/extract etc. 7.62x51 in any old .308?

 

[Gunner3456]

Armalite is the only company that can call their rifle an AR10, that is why you will never see that on any other brand.

Ok, but I do see other brands which are clearly marked 7.62 and some clearly marked .308. ??

 

[Trlsmn]

OK, so can you reliably chamber/extract etc. 7.62x51 in any old .308?

That I can't really say with any authority. I do use most any .308 or 7.62 x 51 in my AR10 but I don't know if that is SOP. I'm sure someone will come along and enlighten us.

 

[onearmedswordsman]

ok, my 2 cents again. If I am wrong, I am sure we will be quickly enlightened.

I think you have it backwards. .308 Winchester ammunition can be loaded to higher pressures than 7.62 NATO. There is a good reason for that (this is were I speculate): .308 Win is designed for bolt rifles which can take the higher pressure round, whereas the 7.62 NATO round is spec-ed to server a wide range of bolt, select fire and full auto firearms. With some exceptions (specialty ammo), these rounds are loaded to 50Kpsi.

So, yes, you can shoot good old surplus 7.62 NATO ball on any bolt and auto-loader. Now, would I fire a standard .308 Win on an auto-loader designed for military ball? With great trepidation! I would shoot only my hand loads and using service rifle handload data.

I am not familiar with the AR-10, LR-308 and SR25 platforms. I encourage you to investigate carefully what your auto-loader can safely repeatedly fire.

In short, with 7.62 NATO vs 308Win we have the reverse scenario of what we see with 5.56 NATO and 223REM.

 

[cameronhu]

ok, my 2 cents again. If I am wrong, I am sure we will be quickly enlightened.

I think you have it backwards. .308 Winchester ammunition can be loaded to higher pressures than 7.62 NATO. There is a good reason for that (this is were I speculate): .308 Win is designed for bolt rifles which can take the higher pressure round, whereas the 7.62 NATO round is spec-ed to server a wide range of bolt, select fire and full auto firearms. With some exceptions (specialty ammo), these rounds are loaded to 50Kpsi.

So, yes, you can shoot good old surplus 7.62 NATO ball on any bolt and auto-loader. Now, would I fire a standard .308 Win on an auto-loader designed for military ball? With great trepidation! I would shoot only my hand loads and using service rifle handload data.

I'll say it again, with 7.62 NATO vs 308Win we have the reverse scenario of what we see with 5.56 NATO and 223REM.

That's my understanding as well. It's also my understanding that Armalite AR10 uppers/lowers only work with Armalite, Noveske and POF uppers/lowers. DPMS and Knight upper/lower combos might work together (I think their lowers use the same mags) and possibly RRA - Although RRA uses FAL mags, and the charging handles have lower clearance, making them incompatible w/ Magpul PRS stocks. I think this is the case w/ Bushmaster BAR-10 as well.

If I were to pursue the build option for a AR-type .308 , I would stick w/ uppers and lowers from the same manufacturer. I can't afford Noveske and POF, so although their products would work with Armalite ( I think their lowers are actually made by Armalite), that's not a viable option.

 

[Trlsmn]

Just an FYI Noveske and Armalite AR10 lowers come off the same production line the only difference is the roll mark. Well and the cost too.......

The Armalite AR10 is rated for both 7.62 x 51 and .308 ammo.

 

[onearmedswordsman]

The Armalite AR10 is rated for both 7.62 x 51 and .308 ammo.

If the others aren't, that is a strong selling point in favor of AR-10s.

I handload for a 308Win bolt. I've seen what auto-loaders do to the brass (I have a few auto-loaders, just not 7.62 NATO). If you plan to reload, buy milspec ammo. The brass will take the punishment much better than the standard commercial fodder. And resist the temptation to exceed safe pressures, milspec brass is tougher to resize when abused; plus, it seems to me it is a bit more brittle and may fail quicker.

Cameron, sorry. Seems we jacked your thread. A 7.62 Stoner-like platform auto-loader is my 2010 project. (Got my 1st AR-15 just a few weeks ago). I better stay tuned and learn from you guys. I am partial to DPMS because of cost and parts availability, but I could be wrong on both counts. Will keep eyes open.

 

[huntpotter]

Did you see this one?

http://www.northwestfirearms.com/forum/showthread.php?p=117831#post117831

 

[cameronhu]

Cameron, sorry. Seems we jacked your thread. A 7.62 Stoner-like platform auto-loader is my 2010 project. (Got my 1st AR-15 just a few weeks ago). I better stay tuned and learn from you guys. I am partial to DPMS because of cost and parts availability, but I could be wrong on both counts. Will keep eyes open.

No problem- I pretty much got my answer early on. I agree, the DPMS is probably the way to go. It seems the most versatile of all the analogs - Although the Rock River LAR-8 might be the most accurate, and if you like a lot of mags, or have a lot of FAL mags, it might be the way to go.

With the price of complete DPMS rifles, building doesn't make sense. Someone posted a link not too long ago with some really great prices for just about every configuration. PM me if you want it. When I scrape up enough cash, that's probably what I'll do. I just have a couple other projects ahead of the .308 in the queue.